The 12 Days of Breeders is a series of interviews conducted with members of the Dog Breeder Society who are doing innovative, creative, and inspiring things in their dog breeding business. In each of these interviews we cover challenges each breeder has encountered, and how they’ve overcome those challenges to find success in their breeding program. Join me for all twelve of these interviews for inspiration, and countless actionable tips you can use to overcome (or avoid) challenges in your own dog breeding program! You can check out all of the interviews in this series here.
Natalie Thurman & Apex Anatolians
For Day 3 of 12 Days of Breeders, we dive into the world of Livestock Guardian Dogs (LGDs) with Natalie Thurman of Apex Anatolians in Frenchtown, Montana. Natalie’s dogs aren’t just pets—they are 24/7 protectors tasked with guarding livestock from predators like bears and mountain lions. She is also currently the President of the Anatolian Shepherd Dog Club of America (ASDCA).
In this powerful episode, Natalie shares the essential difference between breeding for a companion pet and maintaining the innate, independent working temperament required for a true LGD. She provides an expert’s look inside the national breed club, discussing the challenges of preserving the breed’s functional standard against the pressures of dog show conformation.
This interview offers a unique insight into tough ethical questions breeders encounter when they go viral. You will learn the importance of finding a breeder-mentor who emphasizes the whole dog (temperament, health, and working ability) and why blunt, complete honesty with every potential buyer is the only way to ensure successful placement in such a demanding working breed. If you are committed to upholding the function and integrity of a heritage breed, this episode is mandatory listening.
Transcript
Julie Swan | 0:00
Welcome to the Honest Dog Breeder podcast with me, your host Julie Swan, where each week we dive in to discuss all things dog breeding so you can build a breeding business you love, producing dogs that fulfill their owner’s dreams. I believe you can have an honest dog breeding program that also pays the bills. So throw those pods in your ears while you’re cleaning kennels, I’d love to join you.
Welcome back to 12 Days of Breeders, today we have Natalie Thurman of Apex Anatolians in Frenchtown, Montana. Natalie is the president of the Anatolian Shepherd Dog Club of America. Natalie, thanks so much for taking the time and being here with us today.
Natalie Thurman | 0:41
Yeah, you’re welcome Julie, thanks for having me.
Julie Swan | 0:43
So fun. You’ve done so much, so you’ve got to tell us. You’re in bear country, your dogs are pretty incredible.
Can you just share a little bit of what your dogs do, what they’re bred for, just so people understand.
Natalie Thurman | 0:59
Sure, so traditionally the Anatolian Shepherd comes from Turkey and Turkey-adjacent lands and they have been raised for thousands of years literally by shepherds to live with and protect their sheep, goats, and families. So you’re looking at like free-ranging flocks on a mountainside all summer, the dogs are just interspersed with the flock and if anything comes sniffing around to have a quick meal, the dogs step up and say that’s a really bad plan Jack. So that’s what they still do today, there are many people who have them in pet homes, or family guardian homes, but our dogs live with, we have Kunekune Pigs, and Hair Sheep, and Fainting Goats, and poultry, and rabbits, but the rabbits are in cages, except for when the kids leave the gate open which is another story.
But yeah, they work with a mix, I call it a mixed herd of nonsense, and they live outside primarily, if they are injured or sick or whelping, they’re inside, but otherwise they’re outside.
Julie Swan | 2:08
Yeah and they like being outside, I have a livestock guardian dog cross, and I remember I brought him inside one time and he was like, “oh the sky is falling in.”
Natalie Thurman | 2:16
Where did the sky go? Where is it, mother?
Julie Swan | 2:20
I know, it’s like ok, he’s an outside dog. They’re so fantastic, but before you got into Anatolians, can you just give us the rundown how you got started, because you worked with a kind of a rare breed, and just give us your background, where did this come from?
Natalie Thurman | 2:36
Yeah, so I moved to Montana in 2010 with 11 registered Nigerian dwarf goats and they were like up to $400 a piece, which when you’re 22, it’s a lot of money.
Julie Swan | 2:49
That’s great.
Natalie Thurman | 2:50
Sometimes when you’re older than that, that’s a lot of money, but that was all my money basically, it was tied up in these goats. And I moved to Montana, and I was like, oh no, everything wants to eat them, because goats are just like ringing a dinner bell here.
Chickens and goats, they will draw every single predator. So the day I moved in, I went and picked up a puppy from Idaho. It turned out he was seven-eighths Anatolian, and a little skosh of great Pyrenees.
He looked like an Anatolian, so it made sense in the end. But as a little tiny puppy, he alerted to a bear in the yard that went after my buck, and it was a whole thing, and I chased the bear off with a sword. It was great. That’s a story for another time, probably, because we don’t want to look too crazy, right?
But yeah, so I started with one and then one was clearly not enough when you have a large apex predator load. Asking a single dog to guard 11, 30, 50 animals alone, when the predator is usually not alone or way bigger than them, not super fair. So after getting a loaner dog for fall and spring one year, then we brought in an adult to match him. And all the neighbors saw the dogs outside and were like, “oh, that’s so neat.”
And it was a novelty, because it was not a thing in 2012 here to have outdoor dogs that actually worked. It was just running amuck outdoor dogs that were the thing. So they’re like, “oh wow, I’d love to have one to keep the wolves out of my granddaughter’s play yard” and that kind of stuff.
So we have a pretty big demand. So I started breeding back then, and then he got injured. We raised Tibetan Yaks at the time, and a gate got left open, because we never had him in with the yaks because they don’t like dogs.
Julie Swan | 4:37
The Tibetan Yaks, they’re what kind of size?
Natalie Thurman | 4:40
They’re about a 800 pound cow and 1000 to 1200 pound bull. Not huge. Like that is actually very small. It’s small compared to like an Angus. An Angus bull, you’re looking at 2000 pounds and a cow can be 1500 to 1700, I think. So they ate like a third of the hay of normal cows, which is great.
And they looked different than cows. So people would stop on the road and just take pictures, and it was interesting for sure. They still stop on my road and take pictures, but for different reasons now.
So yeah. So one of the yaks actually hit him, and he got paralyzed in the rear, and we did a lot of rehab and stuff, and he did not heal and he was done. He told us he was done.
So we let him go. And then I was in a position where I needed a lead male. And it’s not super easy to come by a trained trainer dog who will raise puppies up the right way.
And so I was able to find one.
Julie Swan | 5:39
Yeah. Tell us about how this trainer dog works. I think it’s a little bit unusual for most breeders.
Natalie Thurman | 5:44
Yeah. So whereas with pet dogs, I feel like if you have an established pet dog, who knows that we sit before going out of the door, or we don’t bark through the window, or we don’t jump on people, a puppy that you bring into that house, will kind of learn that stuff through osmosis, just by being like, well, the big dogs don’t do that. So I don’t do that.
Not that a new puppy doesn’t need training, obviously, but they can learn a lot without active human input. Whereas a lot of livestock guardian dogs, people kind of assume, oh, it’s an LGD. I can just throw this six-week old puppy in with my sheep, and he will figure it out because he has instincts.
Uh, not so much. Yes. He has instincts, but he’s going to be in a fight or flight mode in that situation with no one to protect him.
It does not help him build trust with that flock. And it does not help him build trust with you. And a lot of people who do that hands-off type method end up with a hundred plus pound feral dog in with their sheep.
And that’s not a safe thing to have. Not liability, not medically. It’s just not safe.
Julie Swan | 6:51
Is it dangerous for the sheep and people?
Natalie Thurman | 6:56
If they bond up with the sheep, no, because that dog will die for them. But any human approaching, including your staff or yourself, you’re in trouble. And also if that, I mean, these are working dogs who are going up against very large predators or groups of predators.
Even if it’s just a coyote, you’re not having a coyote, you’re having seven, right? So injuries are a thing that happen.
And living outdoors, you can get pneumonia. You can get things that any pet dog can get. And it is your responsibility as the human involved to vet them properly, and help them out and get them better.
You can’t do that on a dog you can’t touch. You have to tranq them, and when they’re already compromised that can kill them.
Julie Swan | 7:33
Yeah, so just spend the time. So a trainer dog comes in. . .
Natalie Thurman | 7:36
A trainer dog is a dog that will actually appropriately correct a puppy, and help you a lot with the time you put into a puppy. It basically, when you have a dog who will gently, but firmly direct a puppy that you bring in to a working farm situation, that allows you to actually go do other things with your life, other than supervising the puppy or locking the puppy down when you aren’t there. The biggest thing with these guys, is just preventing them establishing those self-rewarding bad behaviors like chasing a chicken, chewing on a goat’s leg, or pulling wool.
These are things that puppies will do because they are puppies, not because they are bad or genetically jacked up or poorly bred. It’s fun. It’s just like a teenager.
They make bad choices sometimes. And that doesn’t mean they’re a bad kid. It means that you weren’t supervising and setting them up for success.
That’s on you as a parent, or me. So same thing, it’s just that responsibility can slide to a dog who is willing. Not every dog is a good trainer.
Not every pet dog is good with puppies, and not every working dog is good with puppies. Including mothers, everyone’s like, “well, the mother will train them.” Some moms are real mean, like me.
But dog wise, they will over-correct and scar that puppy. That puppy will be scared now to go near a chicken or a sheep.
Julie Swan | 9:03
That makes sense. So it’s important to get the right dog. So you didn’t just lose like your male, you lost your trainer and all this stuff. So you were breeding at this point.
Natalie Thurman | 9:17
Yeah. I had my second litter on the ground and he got injured.
Julie Swan | 9:21
Was he the stud?
Natalie Thurman | 9:22
He was. Yep. And he was great.
I have lots of pictures still of him with his little puppies and it’s just adorable. He was very kind.
Julie Swan | 9:29
It must have been a huge loss when this incident happened.
Natalie Thurman | 9:34
It was pretty catastrophic. Yeah.
Yeah. And I was just getting started. It wasn’t like I had a lot of money in the game, but it was a lot of time.
I trained him from scratch. I trained him up the way I wanted him to be. And then I added an adult female and, you know, it was a lot of managerial stuff that went into that.
And then also emotionally, like that was my baby. I didn’t have kids when I got him. I had kids at this point when he got injured, but that was my first little ranch baby.
And it was devastating in a lot of ways. So I was in a position with a mom who was not a trainer dog. She was too harsh with the puppies.
So if she was out with stock, she needed somebody else there to mediate, me or another dog, to be like “lay down. I got this.” And so when Dirk’s was gone, I had no options that were obvious, and I put out feelers.
There were still message boards back then. 2015, 10 years ago was a different world.
Julie Swan | 10:38
Oh, like internet forums. Yes.
Natalie Thurman | 10:38
Yeah. It was, it was for sure. It was a different world.
Julie Swan | 10:41
I know my kids are like you, what? Yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 10:44
Yeah. So no, it was good. I was able to connect with a breeder of Šarplaninac.
It’s also a livestock guardian dog breed obviously, from former Yugoslavia. So, Serbia, Macedonia, modern.
And like great Pyrenees plus hair, very, very fuzzy. Mostly the working dogs on the mountain there are not that fuzzy, but the show ones are very fluffy. And so I was able to get their pick male.
The breeder had kept the whole litter through 18 months. And I was able to go and meet them all and be like, I think he’s the choice based on asking questions. I’m like, “okay, I need him.”
So we brought him home and that was good. He did it great. And then we lost him at the same age.
He also passed away at five. He had inhaled cheatgrass seeds at the breeder’s house into his lungs. And developed, this is a side note, but he had developed scar tissue, like a pearl in a oyster.
His lungs had formed scar tissue around and around and around and around multiple seeds in his lungs. And they just kept building over time. And eventually, it was actually restricting his breathing, and we got him into the vet, and we thought it was cancer and then it wasn’t cancer.
And then one of them burst and that wasn’t a fixable problem. And he was at the vet for a recheck when that happened. I thought he was having a seizure, but he was bleeding out through his lung into his chest cavity.
So two traumatic male losses, right off the bat was pretty rough.
Julie Swan | 12:27
Can you share why you went with that breed, what did you love about him? What’d you find out?
Natalie Thurman | 12:34
They’re super effective here. If you have large apex predators, they’re more sharp, which is, more abandon and willing to go get in the fray of something. One of my females that I imported from Europe, literally got in it with a cougar, and got scratched down her back, and it got infected because cats are gross.
But an Anatolian, I think has a little bit more sense than grit in that way. I have not had the dogs get under a cougar that I’ve seen, or get basically ripped apart.
Julie Swan | 13:10
But they’re not going to continue that. They’re just going until they can mitigate the threat, and then they’ll pull away. Whereas your other ones.
Natalie Thurman | 13:18
The Sharrs really went for it. They kind of wanted to fight a little, it works in a certain setting. That setting is not 10 acres around neighbors, where they would run a bear for five miles, and then get into it on somebody else’s property, maybe in their cattle.
So that’s not ideal, but it’s also just a very sharper temperament breed. Those are the dogs you go outside and you’re like, “Hey, come here.” And they make hard eye contact with you.
And they’re like, “I see you. I hear you. And no, I’m going to do it even harder.”
And then they just like turn around and prance off into the sunset. Not a lot of Americans can tolerate that kind of temperament in a dog. And that’s not an indictment of us.
It’s just facts. They work very well on range. They’re very good. I have friends in Canada who run them and they’re very successful, in lower numbers sometimes than you think, against real legitimate wolf packs and bears.
And that’s because they will cash that check. And it came to a point where I had imported two bitches from Macedonia. I had my male, I was getting going.
I was having litters. I was selling them to people for either work or potential breeding homes, and vetting that way. There were very few homes that were actually appropriate for that breed.
And as a breeder, I think that is part of our responsibility to at least be aware of, even if it’s not going to change your mind about things, just knowing the score, and knowing that like 90% plus of people should never own one of these. It’s a big burden on a person who’s trying to be responsible about placements. So that was part of it, but also there’s a very small group of people in the US and Canada, North America period, who have this breed, who actually consider temperament and hip scores in their breeding decisions.
Julie Swan | 15:29
Yeah. It’s a little bit more of the old school farmer mentality with the breed, right?
Natalie Thurman | 15:33
Yeah. It’s a whole lot of, if there was a problem, I’d see it and I don’t see a problem. And my vet said that his heart sounds good.
So we can breed.
Julie Swan | 15:42
Yeah. That makes sense.
Natalie Thurman | 15:43
Which is a choice. And obviously the people of that mindset are cheaper for getting a puppy from than I was. So they were having no problem pumping out puppies and sending them out.
And then I was getting phone calls because they wouldn’t answer the phone anymore for those people like, “Oh, my dog bit me. What do I do?” And I’m like, “what do you mean?
I don’t know your name. Who are you?” And they’re like, “Oh, it’s not from you.”
I’m like, perfect. It’s still a problem. So I will still help you.
But the breed was going in a direction that I did not like and want to participate, in even on the better side of it. Because I knew people would take one of my puppies potentially, and breed to one of those.
And then and we’ve got a conglomeration of not great traits coming through and just not great. And I couldn’t get a puppy from the good bunch, they’re all legit ranchers who are not dog breeders professionally. And they would have a litter every one, two, three years.
And they just had a waitlist, and they would go in order, because that’s what they told people they would do, which is fine. That’s choice as a breeder, you’re allowed to make your choices, but no one would bump me up as a breeding prospect person. So I was unable to get a female for my progeny male that I had kept back and health tested above and beyond any other Sharr.
So that was really frustrating. And then we had a lot of people just breeding, and telling people that outward aggression and unnecessary aggression was a breed trait. Anytime that anyone would complain about something, they’re like, “Oh, that’s a breed trait,” which I don’t agree with.
And I’m like, if only there was an authority that could tell people no, no, like a stable temperament is still important, especially with a dog of this size. So I recommended to the people that I knew and trusted, I was like, I really think we should have a breed club. And I was like, I don’t want to be the president of it.
I think you lady in Canada should be the president, but I’m happy to help. I’m happy to get documents together. And it was a resounding, no, thank you from the group.
Julie Swan | 17:54
What was their reasoning?
Natalie Thurman | 17:59
They all have working border collies. So they have experience, it doesn’t mean that they’re wrong, it’s just not how I see it.
They think that registries, breed clubs, and specifically the AKC, have ruined that breed that they love and work every day. So they were like, no, no, no. I like being able to do what I’m going to do.
And I’m like, yeah, but see, you’re doing the right things. You’re health testing, and you’re not breeding the dog that will haul off and bite someone for no reason at all. Whereas other people are not doing those things. And they’re like, well, I don’t want to have to tell people what to do.
I was like, okay. But I can’t continue in this breed because I don’t have anywhere to go with my male from my two original dogs. And I have nothing unrelated that I can breed to, and I’m not going to breed back, because that’s too close, and I’m not going to import more because political and social issues, more than the actual dogs themselves honestly.
Importing dogs is rough. Language barriers, and logistics, and not hearing about your dogs for seven days while they’re getting taken out of the country they’re from. It’s not ideal. It’s not great.
Julie Swan | 19:08
Oh, that’s weird.
Natalie Thurman | 19:09
I didn’t want to do it again. I was just like, I’m not up for it. So I hit a wall.
And that’s when I was like, well, if no one’s going to move forward with this with me, I think I need to go back to the original breed that I wanted in the first place, which was Anatolian Shepherds. And so I was able to get a very, very nice one, from my mentor in Southern California. And from there I’ve built a program since 2019.
So six years, a little over six years now, that I’ve had just AKC Anatolians and it’s going well.
Julie Swan | 19:46
No, it seems like it, it seems like it. So has it been easier to manage the Anatolians all in all? Does it feel more appropriate for you?
Natalie Thurman | 19:54
Yeah. Yeah. We gel a lot better.
The Sharrs, I think their temperament is more akin to my husband’s, who is not the person who’s going to be running a dog program.
Julie Swan | 20:03
Well, we know why you love them.
Natalie Thurman | 20:04
I love them a lot and we gel, we’re very complimentary, but it’s a different critter than my heart dogs.
Julie Swan | 20:13
Yeah. And I think even just the marketing, right. The marketing perspective.
Natalie Thurman | 20:17
It was a nightmare.
Julie Swan | 20:17
Yeah, exactly. Plus bloodlines, and keeping the diversity, and then feeling like you’re pulled with the integrity you want to maintain, and then being undercut by people who you don’t really agree with. And everybody can do what they want to do, but. . .
Natalie Thurman | 20:30
I came to a point where I’m like, I’m not independently wealthy. I can’t do this alone. I don’t have unlimited time.
I have small children. It just became a weighing pros and cons, and the cons just won out unfortunately with the Sharrs.
Julie Swan | 20:44
It’s an important decision to make in a business decision. Yeah. And like you said, you’re, I mean 10 acres is not little, you know.
Natalie Thurman | 20:59
Here it is, here they’re like, “Oh, that’s a backyard.” But like it’s all relative.
Julie Swan | 21:00
Right. Yeah, exactly.
Natalie Thurman | 21:02
There’s definitely work to do here. We are between a forest service mountain, and a year around creek, which in any other state would be a river. And so we’ve got the traffic of wildlife coming through.
We’ve got cougars. We’re in territory for multiple cougars, we have griz like this guy, we have them here. They’re actually officially documented now, because they showed up on a Ring cam a few years ago. But we’ve had them for over five years, that I’ve seen them.
And they don’t bother my stuff.
Everyone’s all super concerned about wolves and bears. And I’m like, it’s the cougars that are the problem.
Julie Swan | 21:38
They are so effective.
Natalie Thurman | 21:41
They’re ninjas. You won’t know that they’re there.
Julie Swan | 21:44
Yeah. Yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 21:45
Until it’s too late, even as an adult. And when you have human children, that’s really bad.
But the dogs, nothing irks the dog quite like a big cat.
Julie Swan | 21:53
Oh, they have a sense for them.
Natalie Thurman | 21:56
They hate it. Nothing gets their goat quite like a cougar or even a bobcat. Honestly, they just hate big cats.
Julie Swan | 22:04
Do you think it’s just like the cat and dog, like cats and dogs at each other’s throats.
Natalie Thurman | 22:08
And my dogs, we have barn cats, and they know the difference. Like they can tell. And they’re like, you want to eat my stuff, go away.
Julie Swan | 22:14
Yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 22:15
But they get very upset, obviously with any predator, but they have a different bark for the cats, it’s like a roar. It’s like a guttural roar they do for the cats. And then I’m like, uh-oh, that’s the only thing that makes me say, uh-oh, here now with running eight dogs.
Julie Swan | 22:30
How frequently are you running into predators?
Natalie Thurman | 22:34
Not very often. I think the mark of how you know that your LGDs are numbered up enough, like you have enough of them to do the job where you are, is nothing ever happens.
There’s barking half of the nights, but that is literally them just saying, “Hey, I’m here. If you come here, there’s going to be trouble. Just stay away from here.”
If they sense anything moving in the night. So it’s very effective. They are communicating with predators as a predator.
Predators are territorial by nature, and the wild ones are very opportunistic. And if you have the option of an unattended chicken coop a mile down the road, or my pasture with five dogs in it, the coop down the road looks choice. Like, sorry, neighbor, Bob, but it’s going to be your chickens.
It’s not going to be my sheep tonight.
Julie Swan | 23:28
Yeah, that makes sense.
Natalie Thurman | 23:30
But they’re very effective. These dogs, there’s lots of videos, I think on Facebook and other places where they’re fighting, or they’re fence fighting, and that is a thing overseas. And I do not begrudge people overseas for how they handle their animals differently than we do here, because it goes nowhere good.
And we’ve already taken their dogs. We should just let them have what they’re going to have.
That is a big way they prove their breeding males overseas. It’s not necessarily actually fighting, but fence fighting. So getting them to bravado up at each other, and post up at a fence.
It makes them feel like they have the baddest biggest dog, and it makes them feel good. And I’m like, good for you. That’s fine.
My dogs will actually go fight bears off. And that’s how I know I have good dogs. We all have different strokes.
Julie Swan | 24:21
Exactly, exactly. All right. So you were actually featured in the New York Times about your dogs and their effectiveness towards bears.
Is that right?
Natalie Thurman | 24:31
Yeah. Grizzly bears specifically.
Julie Swan | 24:34
How did that start?
Natalie Thurman | 24:36
I got an email from the reporter, and I thought it was fake because that’s not a thing that happens to real people. Right. Especially not me.
But then he gave his name and he was like, you can look me up at the end. And I was like, will do sir. So I looked him up, and he actually a frequent, not staff, but freelance writer for the New York Times for biology related things.
So I was like, okay, maybe you are legit. We’ll go from there.
Julie Swan | 25:11
And he’s real now. So it’s not like too creepy, except he’s at your house, which may be creepy, but what was the article actually about?
Natalie Thurman | 25:21
So the article was about the fact that grizzly bears are rapidly increasing in number in Montana specifically. And it was kind of a people focused article on how Montanans are adapting to that, to live with the bears. Because you can’t just do what you’ve always done, and expect success with these huge apex predators.
Julie Swan | 25:44
Because they’re new to the area, right?
Natalie Thurman | 25:46
In human intense areas, yeah. They were hunted back.
Literally they used to be on plains, but they got hunted out of them, and like driven into the forest service and the mountains and stuff. So now there’s enough of them where they are spreading, because they will not stay together.
They’re not staying in a pack like a wolf. They’re claiming their own territory, and spreading out in the world. And in that spread, there are people, there are yards, there are children, there are pets, there are livestock and grain fields and berry farms and orchards. And how are people, because you can’t shoot them.
How are people dealing with this? And just like a black bear, electricity is proving pretty effective, because they do lead with their nose, and their nose is wet like a dog. So they touch an electric fence.
They’re going the other way. That’s how we protect orchards here. Like straight up.
It’s a lot of electric fencing and it’s actually not that expensive. And there’s grants. So if you’re in Montana, you can email me and I can hook you up on grant info to get electric fence on your livestock, or produce through the state, they pay for a lot of it.
So it’s great. But their goal, of course, in that grant process is saving the bears from being habituated and seeing people-centric areas as food stores, which they are. We are food sources when we don’t do our job to mitigate and keep them out of it.
The article, it was good. Our local bear manager from Fish, Wildlife and Parks was there in the article, and there was a couple other people, but he did a good amount of the article, shockingly, was pictures of the dogs, and me with the dogs, and just like talking about how these dogs can actually work.
And I think that is PR that you cannot buy. Right. So going from, I think I’m doing the right things, I’m doing what I need to do, and I have a breeding program, and this is not actually how I make my living.
I own a construction company. So I breed because I want to, and because I understand there’s a need for these dogs, which I know, Julie, is not your way, but it’s my way. But I still love it and I’m very dedicated to it.
I am much more passionate about these dogs than I am about gravel and excavation and septic systems. But, you know, they pay the bills. So thank you.
But with the dogs, that’s a lot of attention and eyeballs on your breeding program overnight. I got a lot of phone calls and a lot of text messages, and a ton of emails, good and bad. It wasn’t all good, but it was majorly good.
People were like, wow, that’s really cool. The dogs work like I’m so glad. And some people were like, can I come see the dogs? And I’m like, yes, but just so you know, I’m here and the dogs don’t tolerate nonsense, and I carry.
And that weeded out a bunch of people who didn’t want to come, with me with a gun strapped to my hip. But the problem that came from that article, which I think is kind of important for breeders to understand, just like when you go viral probably on social media, which I have not done because I am bad at it I guess, when you get a lot of attention all at once, it comes with other things that you were maybe not anticipating. And my thing that the New York Times article came with, was stud dog requests for Aries, who is my big Brindle male who featured heavily in the article, and was the image on the New York Times email that went out to all their subscribers that morning.
It was his face that was in the email. And so of course people are like, what is that? Not click baity, but it got people to open that email, right?
The email preview is this big, beautiful dog. And they’re like, what is that? And Montana.
I love Montana. Even though I’ve never been.
I had no fewer than 20 stud dog requests in a week and a half.
Julie Swan | 30:06
Wow!
Natalie Thurman | 30:07
Yes, wow.
Also, yikes, right? These were not bad people. They were like, “oh my god, he’s beautiful, I want a piece of that,” basically.
They wanted me to breed their Border Collie, their Great Pyrenees, their crossbred working LGD at least, their Cane Corso bitch. Because he’s just stunning, or the photos were just stunning. They’re like, I want that.
And they saw pictures of him and his clone puppies. He has other puppies that don’t look just like him, but the clone puppy, of course, is the one that was in the article. So they’re like, he reproduces himself.
I just want a clone of this dog. And I’m like, that’s not how heterozygous brindle works, but whatever. So I hit a crossroads right then and there.
My husband did not agree with my decision. I will say that up front. I neutered him.
Yep. Because my address is listed on Google. I have a Google profile because what are they going to do?
I have dogs here. What I had not considered when I did that. And even if I take it down now, it’s already out there.
So I’m not taking it down. It’s fine. If you want to come to my house, call first for best results.
But somebody could literally bring it in-heat bitch to my house, and breed with him without my being here. I did not want that. So I just responded blanket to everybody.
“I’m so sorry. He’s not available, but thank you.” And that killed it.
It was fine. But what I wasn’t going to do is lie to everybody, and say he’s not available when he really was, you know, because that’s sh**y. And what I really wasn’t going to do is tell them why I wasn’t going to be willing to breed to their, you know, whatever.
Because again, it would not have been kind. It would have been critical and unsolicited advice. They didn’t ask me what I thought of their girl.
They asked me to breed my male to her. So it would not have been nice, how it would have come out, or at least how it would have come across. I would have tried to be nice, but it wouldn’t have come across that way.
So I decided to take the path of least resistance, which was a correct ethical choice I feel, but it was a sh** business choice, because then I didn’t have an intact male on site for two and a half years.
Julie Swan | 32:47
Oh no.
Natalie Thurman | 32:48
So that started a cascade of outside breedings, that either failed, or were like one or two puppies and C-sections, and just a mess business-wise. So it’s damn good that I was not doing this for a living at that time. I still would do it again tomorrow if it happened again.
Right. Because I thought through and I’m like, if I’m a code of ethics breeder. I’m not breeding to a non-registered Anatolian, much less a cross.
So, and I can explain that to people, but I’m like, your bitch is ugly. What if they had an AKC Anatolian girl they want me to breed too.
And I’m just like, I don’t like her. She comes from lines I don’t really like the temperament on. Or I’d have to inspect her in person, you’d have to come here, and I have to do a full temperament evaluation, and evaluate her with livestock before I’d consider it.
And people aren’t going to do that. They want me to ship semen to Massachusetts or wherever, it’s not workable either way, but it was a thing that I did, that my husband was like, why did you do this? And he’s like, there’s nothing wrong with him.
And I’m like, I know, but he has had five litters. That’s enough. And also his parents were frankly overbred.
The more I dug into his lineage, I think they had seven litters out of the same two parents that are all registered out there. His genetics are not at a premium and being lost.
So I’m like, I feel good about the choice to neuter him either way, but I was not anticipating that coming from the article. I thought people would be like, how can you breed dogs? I expected that type of feedback from it.
And I expected my mom sharing on Facebook and being like, my daughter was featured in the New York Times. So cool. Look at how cool my kid is.
You know, that kind of stuff, not can I breed to your male?
Julie Swan | 34:53
It’s interesting. And so many off breeds. I never would have anticipated that.
Natalie Thurman | 35:00
Yeah. It was wild. And I was just like, aaaah, but I think I did the right thing.
I did the right thing for me. And in the end, that’s all that matters. My husband, he likes to have opinions about the dogs, but they’re mine.
They’re mine. It’s my breeding program. It’s my name on it.
I throw his name on for fun sometimes, just to be nice. But if someone has a problem, it’s me, they’re talking to. And if someone has a question about Anatolian Shepherds, they’re coming to me, they’re not going to Tim.
He has other skills. He runs the excavator. Okay.
And I breed the dogs. Separation of church and state.
Julie Swan | 35:39
Yes. There you go. That’s funny. I understand.
Natalie Thurman | 35:43
But it worked out in the end. It all worked out. I’m Christian, and I prayed on it, and I just did it before I could logic myself back out of it.
And I was like, I did the right thing all day long. I’ll say I did the right thing. And the catch, he’s frozen.
So if his son that I kept had not passed his health testing, I have a couple of breedings frozen, but that’s for me. That’s not for anybody else. So yeah, I’ll stand by it all day long, but it was shocking and weird.
And it had the potential for me to choose money. I mean, I could have been like, yeah, it’s $5,000 a breeding to anybody. And I could have cleaned up.
That would have been what? A hundred grand, $5,000 times 20.
Julie Swan | 36:39
If you got 20. Yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 36:40
I could have made a sh** ton of money. And then I would have been dealing with it the rest of my life basically, and felt bad forever.
So I’m glad I didn’t do that at least. But I think breeders, when you have an intact male, who’s either popular in the show ring, or popular on TikTok, that’s going to come up at some point in your journey. And having a plan for what, when, and if that happens is probably better than getting blindsided by it. So if you have a really nice, stunning, photographs really well, male maybe consider that too.
Julie Swan | 37:17
Yeah, no, that’s smart. Yeah. I like the line.
I mean, I’m liking more of the line “to approved programs.” Right.
Natalie Thurman | 37:27
That’s all over my website, yeah.
Julie Swan | 37:34
Because it gives you the, “Oh, but we require this. I’m so sorry.” You know? And yeah, no, I get it.
It gets frustrating. I get torn because I don’t want to perpetuate and make bad dogs for people. But often I know that my stud will fix so many things for people.
So if they’re going to breed anyway, they probably should use my stud. Because then, you know?
And so it is weird.
Natalie Thurman | 37:56
And that’s totally a thing in purebred dogs, which you are in. And I know that. There are opportunities for a stud to fix something in a bitch. Like that is absolutely okay to do.
Julie Swan | 38:09
Yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 38:09
That was not the situation I was presented.
Julie Swan | 38:11
Well not a Border Collie.
Natalie Thurman | 38:14
No.
Julie Swan | 38:14
Can you imagine what that would look like?
Natalie Thurman | 38:18
The problem is they would be super cute puppies when they sold them, and then they would turn into this monstrous-sized, weird, hyperactive, assembled by a committee, like a giraffe of a horse.
Right. Like this is not right.
Something ain’t right. There is absolutely a time and place to let someone outside of your home, use your stud. Probably not going to find you through the New York Times.
They’re probably going to find you through a performance event or through a puppy. If they see one of your puppies in the wild, and they ask the person where they got that puppy, because they really like your puppy, and your puppy has a better rear assembly than their bitch does. And they want to see if the stud looks the same, and maybe they could use him.
That’s a great way to find a stud dog. The New York Times. Ain’t it?
Because all they’re doing, is going off of a blurb and a picture of his head. They didn’t even see his body. That’s not how we pick a stud dog.
Okay. Like just, it’s not it. And people are going to do whatever they want to do, but I would recommend seeing the dog in person that you want to use, or at least having a good idea of the lineage, and seeing his puppies, find if he’s been bred to a bitch that kind of looks like yours, or her cousin or her sister, what did it produce?
Was it worth doing again? That kind of stuff. Not, I saw a magazine article.
Julie Swan | 39:57
It is an interesting place. That’s not my first pick for shopping for studs. So there’s that.
Natalie Thurman | 40:02
Yeah. I don’t know what they were thinking, honestly, but, and I’m not judging them. I’m very flattered.
They liked him so much, and they were so struck by him that they wanted to have his puppies, but no, is a complete sentence as well.
Julie Swan | 40:18
Fair enough.
Natalie Thurman | 40:19
Thank you. No.
Julie Swan | 40:19
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So you were in the New York Times and this guy comes to your house.
Natalie Thurman | 40:25
He came out, he saw the dogs, he saw everybody, we walked around, and he got to pet them and be like, wow, these are, you know, really cool. I’m like, thank you. But the focus of the article was just addressing the fact that there are an increased number of grizzly bears in Montana and elsewhere, but because they are protected federally, it’s a different situation than with black bears or any other predator that we have here.
Julie Swan | 40:57
You can get tags, and you have a right to defend your land against them, but because they’re protected, it changes that. Is that right?
Natalie Thurman | 41:03
Yeah. So with a grizzly bear, unless you are actively about to be killed, or someone you love, like a person is actively about to be killed, or it’s actually killed and killing more of your livestock, you can’t touch it. You can go to prison, you can get big fines and lose your house.
It is a serious thing. And grizzly bears are very territorial also. What we have in our Valley right now, I think we have five of them that come through and post up at different points. But they’re not friendly with each other.
They’re not seeking out human things yet because there’s plenty of berries. There’s plenty of wildlife. There’s a lot of water.
So we don’t have it as bad as some other areas. They basically did a study as well, which has also been in the New York Times now, which was like, okay, there’s bears and they’re targeting grain silos. They’re targeting outbuildings. They’re destroying hunting shacks that have been in the family for generations, because you left something there.
We’re talking ripping the doors off the hinges, and just ransacking the place, and eating everything that you had stocked up for next week’s hunt. So you’re showing up to this crazy, like, it’s bad. And also very disconcerting, regardless of the caliber of weapon you brought with you to hunt.
Julie Swan | 42:37
Oh, for sure, they’re huge.
Natalie Thurman | 42:38
No one’s ready for that.
And so the name of the game with bears, regardless of species, is preventing habituation, which is just the process where a bear no longer fears people. They see people as a food source, not as a threat. Once that happens, there’s really no saving that bear, because they’re only going to escalate.
And people are not as predictable as predators, and they make dumb decisions. We just do. And so then people get killed inevitably, and then the bear pays the price basically for that.
So with the bears, what they’re trying to do, is they had a study with Utah State and Montana Fish and Game, and they got together and they provided people west of the divide. So I’m west of the divide, which is the Rocky Mountains in Montana. Most of Montana is east of the divide.
I’m on the good side, not to brag. But east of the divide they were having a lot of grain silo issues, or just people with property that were having grizzly bears come and wipe out 30 chickens in a night, which is a problem. If that’s how you make your living or side gig or whatever.
So they did a controlled study, where they had some that didn’t have anything in place. And then they added dogs to some other study properties. And I sold two puppies to that study at a very low rate.
And shockingly to no one, the dogs were very effective at keeping the grizzly bears out of the yard. It wasn’t really a livestock related study. It was more of a property and feed stuffs related study, because when you’re a rancher, and you have cattle, you’re not so worried, but if you have no corn now for the rest of winter in Montana, that’s a big problem.
Or if they dump it, bears are very smart.
Julie Swan | 44:41
So the bears were taking essentially the feed supply, they weren’t killing the animals so much. It was the feed supply, which just wipes you out, because a lot of farmers buy in bulk, like they buy a season.
Natalie Thurman | 44:51
Yeah. So bears are pretty smart. They could open a silo and have it drain a year’s worth of feed.
And then they would just come back every night and eat some of it. Who doesn’t love corn? We like corn.
Bears are just like, “yes!” During hyperphagia, which is this time of year right now.
Julie Swan | 45:15
So everyone knows, we’re recording in September. Yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 45:18
Yeah. So when this comes out, it will be over, and the bears will be in torpor and everything will be fine. But in the fall, they hit hyperphagia, which is where they eat everything they can fit in their mouth, because they have to put on weight to survive, it’s not hibernation. It’s like a nap, a heavy nap that they go to in winter.
They can wake up and they can mess you up if you go in their house. So don’t do that. The more you know, but yeah, so the bears are very effective at surviving.
And part of that survival is seeing a grain silo and smelling the corn or wheat or whatever else you got in there and saying, cha-ching. So when there’s a dog or two between that source and the bear, the bear says, I’m going to go elsewhere. Thank you.
Julie Swan | 46:00
Yeah. And it prevents habituation, right?
Natalie Thurman | 46:02
It prevents habituation. It saves that bear from inevitably being culled by Fish & Game. And it just prevents a lot of loss and heartache and nastiness.
And yes, the dogs are big, and yes, they can be expensive, my puppies are. And they are expensive to feed, and maintain, and vet. But on the flip side, what are you getting for that money that you’re investing in that dog?
I think it’s way more than the feed and vet fee and the puppy cost.
Julie Swan | 46:29
Well, you can lose one cow, one chicken coop, and it starts to add up really fast.
Natalie Thurman | 46:36
It truly does. And it seems like a little side hobby to a lot of people. They don’t understand when you’re subsistence farming or ranching, it actually does matter when you lose a calf or three in a season, it can break you.
It can make it to where you’re no longer profitable and can’t feed your kids. That’s a problem. So the bears, they’re a thing, but they’re here.
No one, no one that I am friendly with I guess I should say, wants them eradicated or done away with or gone. We also don’t want them in our yard with our children. There’s a difference.
It’s not one or the other, there is a gray area where we can coexist. And the way that I’ve been, since I came to Montana 15 years ago, is having the dogs. It’s a clear and a kind way to communicate your presence, instead of just shooting them, shooting predators is not friendly.
Julie Swan | 47:31
Well what else would you do?
Natalie Thurman | 47:34
There’s a lot of people who do that around here. And I’m just like, you’re not preventing or solving any problems. You are creating more problems.
You’re buying trouble in the future, basically. When you just shoot wolves.
Julie Swan | 47:48
Yeah. So what’s neat is your dogs are actually, not only are they the deterrent, but they pretty much just prevent any interaction. Like they mark the territory.
This is ours.
Natalie Thurman | 47:59
Yeah. They’re basically a bouncer, like a pasture bouncer. They’re there.
And that eliminates 80% of the nonsense, because they’re like, “well, I’m going to have to deal with that guy if I mouth off, or touch somebody in a bad way” or anything like that. And the remaining 20%, the only time I actually have conflicts, are if the predator is injured, or sick, or otherwise compromised, and it cannot physically run down a deer to go actually get protein, or like some years we have more pressure when there’s no berries.
If we have a very dry year and there’s no berries on the trees, there’s tons right now, which is great. They’re hungry. And if you’re hungry, you’re going to go take more risk on yourself to go get a meal.
And frankly, penned livestock, especially on 10 acres where I have it like cross fenced, that’s easy pickings without the dogs there. It’s a buffet. It’s just sitting there ready for the pickin.
So I understand from the predator’s perspective why it makes sense to come here. Right. They’re not villains.
They’re not malicious. They don’t have that in their head. They’re instinctually driven to survive, and humans put goats and chickens in a box, and expect that the bear will have morals and not touch them because his name is Fluffy.
And that’s just not a thing. It’s just not realistic.
Julie Swan | 49:25
What about kids? Do they come after kids at all?
Natalie Thurman | 49:28
They can. It’s not like they’re going after kids for food, but territorially, humans are predators, just like a bear, just like a wolf. And when you have like a crying toddler in your yard, or you have kids playing, and they are an obstacle to a predator between them and a meal, whether that’s a wild deer in your yard, like a fawn or something else, if that kid’s in the way, the kid’s in trouble.
And when you have kids out here, you literally have to train the kids. Even if you do have dogs, you have to train your children, leave the dog because they want to stay with their dog, and bring their dog back into the house, or into the yard, or protect the dog. So I tell people, we have to train your kids, leave the dog, go get safe.
And that’s the thing that most people who live in cities have never conceived of.
Julie Swan | 50:25
That’s very true. I know.
Natalie Thurman | 50:27
They’re worried about people. Like they’re worried about the creepy guy down the road, right? You’re not worried about a bear or a cougar.
Julie Swan | 50:35
Yes, exactly. Well, the coyotes here are only like 40 pounds, you know, they’re just not that big.
Natalie Thurman | 50:39
A decent sized toddler could take them. Yeah.
Julie Swan | 50:41
Yeah, exactly. Like I just run my hands up and they’re just like, “oh, okay.” Yeah, exactly.
I mean, I do see them carry cats a lot.
Natalie Thurman | 50:50
Absolutely.
Julie Swan | 50:51
But they’re not that scary for us.
Once the kids are about four years old, it’s not worth it.
Natalie Thurman | 50:59
You reach a critical mass where it’s like, “you’re okay now.” Yeah. It sounds crazy.
But people who live out of town will get it. They’re like, yeah, we have a minimum age of kids we allow outside without an adult.
Julie Swan | 51:12
Is that kind of your market, selling your Anatolians to what would you say? Like, is it ranchers? Is it like the similar to where you are, where you’ve got like you’ve got land, and but not crazy commercial size livestock?
Natalie Thurman | 51:28
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it is more like the homesteading types.
Yeah. So they have a young family, and they have livestock that maybe do have names. So we’re emotionally attached and then we eat their babies or whatever.
But we would never eat Ginger, you know, that kind of stuff happens. But the people who are willing to invest in a registered, pedigreed, out of health tested parents puppy, is not so much the guy operating 500 head or a thousand head of cattle on range. They have what we call an acceptable loss column.
And they basically write off X number of calves or cows a year.
Julie Swan | 52:13
Yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 52:13
And that’s just the way it is. That’s the way it’s always been. People aren’t really doing that job unless their grandpa did it usually.
And this is just the way they have been taught how to do it. And that’s their method. They’re not going to go buy a $4,000 puppy and risk that puppy.
And they’re definitely not going to go buy five of them, and run an actual functioning LGD pack on their hundred plus acres of land, and count on that. Because then the minute they still lose a calf, they dump the dogs. That tends to be what happens with the big scale ranchers. They’re like, “oh, clearly they don’t work.” Rather than editing managerial stuff and adding cross fencing, giving the dogs a chance.
Julie Swan | 52:59
Do you find that people just understand the value, the homesteaders, understand the value in a different way.
Natalie Thurman | 53:05
Yeah. And they’re also usually running smaller niche registered stock. Or they have purebred, like poultry that they sell those hatching eggs in the spring for sixty-five bucks a dozen.
It’s not like they’re dumb and not business-savvy people, but they are more niche, and they understand the value of a security dog.
Julie Swan | 53:27
They’re not looking at their stuff like commodities, pricing it based on the stock exchange commodity lists.
Natalie Thurman | 53:33
There’s more into it. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So, yeah, that is my market.
I absolutely have sold dogs to people who moved up here during Covid, have small children and are like, oh, my God, there is a bear on my porch. I’m at work, usually it’s the guy who’s at work, and his wife is calling him panicked because she doesn’t remember how to use the shotgun, because there’s a bear on their porch trying to break down their door. That’s not a call that anyone wants to get.
And that’s a pretty regular call that happens here, with people who move here from other places, and are just not mentally prepared for that to happen. I’ve got a family right now that I’m talking to, that has had that basic experience, and the guy’s like, “I have to do something.” And I’m like, yeah, but a puppy is not going to fix that.
So then we have to talk about how to come by an adult, do I have adults available. Not really. But I feel obligated to help them, because they are in trouble, and they have children, and you can replace a cow, a goat, a sheep.
You cannot replace a human child. It’s a different level. And some people in Anatolians and other guardian breeds think like, “oh, well, they’re livestock guardian dogs.
They’re not people guardian dogs. And that’s not in keeping with the historical significance and purpose of this breed.” Yes, it is.
In Turkey, and wherever else your dogs come from, regardless of what livestock guardian dog breed you have, they have always protected the shepherd’s family as well. It has never just been about the sheep. And shepherds are bonded to their dogs too.
It’s not just a dog-herd relationship going on. The shepherds are in it with them. Shepherds matter to the dogs, and the dogs matter to the shepherds. And humans matter. I don’t know how better to explain that.
Julie Swan | 55:26
They just sort of extend their protection and care to the kids. That’s just natural.
Natalie Thurman | 55:33
Yeah, I think the dogs think that kids are just really weird looking hairless goats. They make sudden movements. They make similar noises, but they’re just real funky looking.
Julie Swan | 55:47
They’re both called kids, right? Like, there you go.
Natalie Thurman | 55:49
Yeah, weird, weird looking goats. But yeah, people need their kids protected. And if you can at least have a bubble of a backyard, where a dog is running, and marking scent, and barking out, and keeping stuff out of, your kids can maybe actually play outdoors, which is why you moved here in the first place.
Frankly, you didn’t move here so your kids could sit on a screen all day, right? Montana is for outdoors people.
Julie Swan | 56:16
Yeah, that makes sense for sure.
Natalie Thurman | 56:18
So yeah, it works. It works well. People come back to me a lot because they’re like, I need another one.
I’m like, okay.
Julie Swan | 56:26
They do work better in pairs, don’t they?
Natalie Thurman | 56:29
Absolutely. Yeah. Pairs are the minimum here.
If you have a grizzly bear coming in your yard, or you have multiple wolves coming around, you really do need three, but it’s not like you need three today. That’s something you build up to. I don’t place litter mate puppies together, because people don’t always understand that you have to actually separate them.
And give them separate bonding time so they’re not codependent and weird. It’s worse than pet dogs because they’re outside. They’re just with each other all the time. They’re going to bond and play with each other and they’re going to forget the sheep are there.
Julie Swan | 57:01
Oh yeah. Two boys, two brothers that grew up in the woods together. Oh yeah.
That’s dangerous.
Natalie Thurman | 57:07
Yeah, humans are the same. So yeah, people get them, and everybody has different expectations. That’s part of my job, is setting the expectations like, you must actually reinforce what you do want, and redirect what you do not want. And what I want and do not want is not identical to probably anybody else.
I have different rules for my dogs than most people. And that’s fine. The puppy does not come with that pre-installed.
Your dog will have your quirks.
Julie Swan | 57:36
Yeah, exactly. So is there anything you do specifically to work with them or educate them?
Natalie Thurman | 57:41
People?
Julie Swan | 57:42
Yeah. Is it mostly conversations or how do you do that?
Natalie Thurman | 57:44
Yeah, it’s a lot of conversations. I also have an online course.
Julie Swan | 57:48
Oh, that’s so cool.
Natalie Thurman | 57:49
That I give to anybody who puts a deposit down, basically who is on the reservation list gets access to this course, where I go over like, are they really allergic to anesthesia? No. Breed history. And I give them the timeline, and I give them all this stuff, because once you have a weird dog, a weird breed of dog, people will stop you and ask you questions.
And if your whole thing is “I don’t know,” it doesn’t feel good. Like I spent a lot of money on this puppy. I don’t know.
So I try to primer that end of it, as well as the functional day-to-day. If you’re getting a puppy for kids, you can’t just leave the puppy with the kids. It’s going to chew on them.
Adult supervision is required. When my boys were little, I would totally leave them with the dogs, but the dogs were pre-trained and calm. They were not puppies.
They were adults and they were trustworthy and I could see them out the window. It’s a little different. You can’t outsource parenting to a dog.
Julie Swan | 58:55
You really can’t.
Natalie Thurman | 58:55
No matter what Peter Pan says.
Julie Swan | 58:58
About what age are they effective?
Natalie Thurman | 59:02
Sure. They’re effective from, I would say about six to eight months. They have at least enough mass to them to deter, which is basically their job, deterrent.
Their job is not to fight. Their job is to deter. That does not mean they’re ready to go and trained and done.
Usually. I’ve of course had the unicorn dog who just never did anything wrong. And I’m like, that’s like the family who has nine children.
And they had one kid that they would forget existed because they were never in trouble at school, and they got straight A’s, and they were just not a problem. That’s the exception, not the rule.
So typically they’re actually pretty good to about six or eight months when they get enough size on them. Then they have enough mass and you’re like, “Oh, I can treat you like an adult dog now.”
Julie Swan | 59:54
No.
Natalie Thurman | 59:56
No, no. Just because they look mature. Doesn’t mean their noggin is mature. And the noggin is what matters. So, yeah, continue training. I swear to God, their brain falls out on occasion.
Julie Swan | 1:00:08
Like the teenage regression? It’s painful in every breed.
Natalie Thurman | 1:00:12
Absolutely. You’ll be like, “Hey, sit.” And they’re like, “sit? I don’t know her.”
And they seem sincere.
And you’re like, are you messing with me right now? We know what sit means in this house. And they just look at you with a blank stare, and they’re just like, “okay, that’s all.
I’m going to go back to do what I was doing before.” And that doesn’t hit right with most people who’ve had German Shepherds or Golden Retrievers their whole lives, who just exist to please. These dogs are not that.
Julie Swan | 1:00:42
They’re way too independent of thinkers.
Yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 1:00:47
They’re very independent, but it’s by design. It’s not a malice issue, and they’re not trying to get back at you or being petty.
They are literally bred to do their work while you sleep. You’re welcome. If you want a dog, who’s going to work while you sleep, and you can actually sleep through the night, and not have to get up three times and grab a gun and your trench coat and boots and go wander out in the dark, you have to allow for them to actually have their own thoughts and make their own decisions in life.
And that can be situational. Like they are just regular dogs in town. They will heel, well, I don’t really care about heeling, but they will walk on a loose lead, and they will come when I say come, and they will lay down under a table at a restaurant so that we can have dinner.
They will do these things. And they will go to a dog show, and they will prance around a ring that they think is stupid. All the time wondering where their sheep are, and why mom is making us do this, but they will do it because I ask. And because we have a relationship. And then when they get home, they get a steak and everything’s fine.
And it’s good. But I ask them to do some ridiculous things. And I understand that dog shows are ridiculous to these dogs, and I don’t care because I’m not going because I enjoy it. I’m kind of bad at it, honestly, which is funny now as the president of the club. I have them to be working dogs. I take them to shows to prove they have the temperament to be in public.
They can stand for exam by a stranger, a stranger can go grab his balls off property, my dogs can behave in public. And that is a big thing that a lot of these dogs can’t do.
Julie Swan | 1:02:32
Right.
Natalie Thurman | 1:02:33
So that’s why we’re going. And also just so people can meet the breed, because a lot of people are not coming to my house. They’re welcome, by appointment please.
To come to my house and meet the dogs and get the whole run down from me. But most people don’t have the time, or they’re not close enough.
Julie Swan | 1:02:49
It’s a bit of a drive. I would imagine probably from town. You don’t sound like you’re right in town.
Natalie Thurman | 1:02:53
I’m not. Yeah. No.
So it’s an investment of time and all that stuff, but it’s also important for people to see the breed out in public and be like, what is that? Which is a completely logical and fair question. People who have rare breeds and get offended when people ask what kind of dog is that?
I don’t get you. Don’t be rude. They’re interested in your dog.
Talk their ear off about your dog.
Julie Swan | 1:03:17
Exactly. Exactly. I love how you’ve thrown in that history into your course so that people can be prepared for that.
Natalie Thurman | 1:03:23
Yeah. And it helps. It gives them something to say as opposed to like, it’s an Anatolian.
If you say Anatolian Shepherd, the first thing that most people say is, “Oh, like a German Shepherd.” No. And then you have to backtrack and be like, no, they’re from Turkey.
They live outdoors with livestock. They don’t herd. They’re not a living fence, like a German Shepherd that never stops moving all day.
These guys are actually pretty stationary during the day. They’re napping on the top of the hill to just keep an eye on things. Like opposite basically temperament, for an adjacent job, but not at all similar.
It’s interesting to have these conversations out in the public where, they have a Bernadoodle and they’re like, “Oh, I have a purebred Bernadoodle.” And I’m like, Oh, that’s nice.
Like, you know, don’t fight with people in public. It’s rude. But it doesn’t hurt anybody to be nice and educated.
That doesn’t harm anything. So just be nice.
Julie Swan | 1:04:19
Right. Exactly. Just share, be an ambassador for the breed. It’s so much better.
Natalie Thurman | 1:04:23
Yeah. And I’m always like, they do need a job. You can’t just have one as a pet.
They’re going to give themselves a job, and it’s going to be to bark at the mailman. Or break through your front glass when you have a stranger outside in the middle of the night. Give them a job, please.
Julie Swan | 1:04:38
Right.
They’re not couch potatoes. Okay. So you wanted to do the breed club for the Sharrs first, and that kind of fell through, ended up shoving you maybe to a better aligned breed.
With being Anatolians.
Natalie Thurman | 1:04:57
Yeah, it worked out in the end. I have no ill will towards any of those people. We’re still friendly.
Julie Swan | 1:04:59
Oh no, it just, this is a better fit for you.
Natalie Thurman | 1:05:01
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 1:05:02
So how did you become president? Did you have any goals when you got in there, or what did you want to shift?
Natalie Thurman | 1:05:12
Oh boy. Yeah. Okay.
So did I have any goals? I have a list. So basically the Anatolian Shepherd Dog Club of America was founded in 1970.
I was born in 1988. If that puts any perspective on it, I was not around, not only was I not in the breed, I was not breathing for a lot of the initial pain of getting the breed established in the US. And the work of people who had to go to Mexico to show their dogs, to get compared to a breed standard, because there was no option in the US. I cannot quantify adequately the amount of work that the initial people put in. Not just because I wasn’t there, but because it is insurmountable to bring dogs from Turkey. And the club founders.
It was a couple, it was actually two couples basically, but the main couple, he was in the Navy and he was stationed in Turkey, and he was gifted some dogs and he brought them home.
Julie Swan | 1:06:16
Got it.
Natalie Thurman | 1:06:17
And like, that’s how this went down.
Were there Anatolians in the country before 1970? Yes. Yes, there were.
The USDA had a failed project way back, the Department of Agriculture. But the dogs, apparently their food budget bankrupted the project for the Department of Ag. They were studying the Anatolian in the fifties.
They basically like assembled a bunch of different breeds from overseas to try to see how we can support America’s farmers. And it was a noble idea.
They just had no idea the size of these dogs and their needs. So they just ended up dispersing the dogs all willy nilly everywhere, without appropriate paperwork to track lineage or anything like that. So we don’t really have access to those dogs, unfortunately.
Plus they were mixed with all the others, they were interbred with all the others.
Julie Swan | 1:07:15
That’s really common in government testing projects I noticed. Like, let’s just blend all these genetics.
Natalie Thurman | 1:07:19
It’s great intentions.
Julie Swan | 1:07:21
Right.
Natalie Thurman | 1:07:21
And not so great planning and follow through. Yeah. It’s a thing, and it’s not their fault.
They meant well, but it happened. But the Club, it has a very interesting history. There was not just one breed club that was started back then.
There was three, and the people associated with each, they basically chose a side, and a lot of drama ensued and, you know, stuff happens. People do be peopling. But that was a long time ago. I still have members today who remember that time.
Julie Swan | 1:07:57
Wow.
Natalie Thurman | 1:07:57
And they were there.
Julie Swan | 1:08:00
Yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 1:08:01
They have a lot of big feelings about certain people or certain looks of dog that they don’t agree with in their soul, in their heart. And it’s well-intentioned and it’s based on their personal experience. And I can’t do anything to change that.
And I don’t want to change their experience or their opinions. That’s not my job. But my goal coming in as a sort of young person, I’m in my thirties. So I’m younger, for a few more years, then it’s over.
Right. I think. My husband’s in his forties and he’s like, “it gets worse, babe.
Just wait, you’re not gonna be able to bend your knees.” So I don’t have any issues with acknowledging historical stuff. And I value the people who went before us and did all this cool stuff so we could have a club.
I see the value in having a dog club, as opposed to a lot of people, who just think that they’re ruining a breed and over-restrictive.
Julie Swan | 1:09:08
Yeah. I mean, do you want to kind of split too? Because I think some people don’t understand the difference between a breed club and AKC. And of course in doodle world, a lot of the doodle breeds that have a club, they’re the registry and the club at once, which is not the case for purebred.
Natalie Thurman | 1:09:26
Yeah. So I can walk you through with our club. We were founded in 1970. We were our own registry, right?
Because nobody else would take us. Just straight up. No one, AKC is not recognizing a dog breed that was just imported yesterday.
Julie Swan | 1:09:42
Okay. Fair.
Natalie Thurman | 1:09:43
You have to have to meet criterion to get into the foundation stock service, and then you move up to miscellaneous as a breed, and then you can move up and be recognized as an official AKC breed, it is a process. It is work. And we finally got that in the nineties.
So it took decades of work. What the AKC actually is, I think there’s a lot of confusion just like about AKC, and what they are, and what they actually do and what they don’t do. They don’t breed.
They’re not responsible for breeders’ decisions. They maintain registry records. They maintain a stud book of so-and-so bred so-and-so made this puppy for you.
And they can “give” you, they can sell you a four generation pedigree to go with your puppy registration, so that you can know where they came from and track lineage if that interests you. But they’re not the one making the breeding decisions. They’re not the one deciding who wins the dog show.
Julie Swan | 1:10:44
They’re not deciding who can breed.
Natalie Thurman | 1:10:46
They’re not saying who can or cannot breed. No.
So what a lot of people say, the common line is the AKC ruined X, right? So Border Collies, German Shepherds, it’s common in working dogs, herding breeds are working dogs. They’re just a different subset.
So they like to say “the AKC ruined my breed,” to which I say, “how?” And they’re like, “well, they all look like this show dog for the AKC instead of being functional in the field.”
And I say, “Oh, I’m so sorry. That sucks. Is the show dog unfunctional in the field?”
And of course I say yes. And I show them videos of a show dog champion who works cattle every day. And they’re like, yeah, but that’s the exception.
And I’m like, okay, like, let’s not get into semantics here. The AKC is a record keeper. It’s like the accountant of the lineage.
They’re tracking that. And as a breeder, I’m the one producing the puppies. I’m the one selling the puppies to, hopefully, the correct homes.
I’m the one who restricts breeding rights on my puppies, not the AKC. The AKC doesn’t say, Oh, that Frenchie is Merle. So it can’t be registered. Because they’re registering it as a fawn.
The AKC doesn’t know it’s a Merle and they’re breeding it. And the silver Labrador is a chocolate Labrador on paper.
And that is not the AKC doing it. It’s very important to delineate. The AKC didn’t do that.
It was actually the breeder or the buyer, whoever is submitting that.
Julie Swan | 1:12:27
I think what happens is people. So we have AKC shows, we have UKC shows, and they’re different, right? But that standard doesn’t come from AKC.
Natalie Thurman | 1:12:38
It does not. No, no, that’s a super good point. So a breed club, a breed parent club, is the organization behind whatever breed.
So the Anatolian Shepherd Dog Club of America is the breed parent club for the Anatolian Shepherd Dog to the AKC.
Julie Swan | 1:12:59
Which is like the official one right? So they had to appeal as a club to AKC and say, “Hey, we want to use your registry. Will you let us?”
Natalie Thurman | 1:13:07
And here is the standard, and here are bylaws. Any bylaw change that we make to our club has to be not only voted by membership, but also approved by the board of the AKC.
Julie Swan | 1:13:20
Interesting.
Natalie Thurman | 1:13:21
Breed clubs are established to protect and preserve a breed. We lose money hand over fist basically. We’re not there to make money, and it’s not a for-profit thing.
But we do own our breed standard. It’s our baby. When we make changes to it and the membership of the club votes.
And that is a really big reason to actually join whatever breed you’re in, the breed club. Because if you are a voting member of your breed club, you actually have a voice in the future of your breed, whether that is to change or to not change your breed standard. You would actually have a voting right to say, “no, leave it as it is.
It’s been fine for a hundred years. It’s fine for a hundred more.” Or to say, “actually, this is a little vague, or this is too specific and too restrictive. And we’re running into health issues by following this part of the breed standard.”
I’m not saying the breed standard should never be changed. I’m looking to change ours a little bit. But it’s not so black and white, and it’s not just the AKC lording over everything, ruining everything.
Julie Swan | 1:14:36
Do you happen to know with AKC and UKC, are they separate breed clubs that are their official? And that’s why the standards are different. And maybe in theory, because UKC has the reputation of the working dog shows and AKC has the reputation of the show dog lines.
Would it be fair to say that a more working focused breed club would appeal more to wanting to work with UKC? Is that kind of maybe where this is coming from? If you know?
Natalie Thurman | 1:15:05
No, no, I do know. So with the Antolian specifically, yes, there is a separate breed club.
Julie Swan | 1:15:09
Okay.
Natalie Thurman | 1:15:10
That is the UKC breed club. The UKC also recognizes the Kangal dog from Turkey, which is a fawn black mask only, not all colors, and a little bit different size, and a little sharper temperament and different structured skull, but the AKC does not. So there are differences between the two registries for sure.
I think the UKC, it’s a slightly newer organization. It does not have the same reputation as AKC does for shows and stuff, but they still absolutely do them. They do shows, they do hunt trials.
They do all the stuff that AKC does, the UKC also does. The UKC does not have professional handlers, which is a big difference in their confirmation. So the dog show that you think of on TV, AKC has people who do that for a living, because they’re good at it.
They can take a dog around the ring and make it look its best. I cannot. The dog is winning in spite of me, not because of me.
That’s me. There are also owner handlers who are not being paid, who are showing their own dogs, who are fantastic, by the way. You don’t have to be a pro to win.
That’s not a thing in AKC. It’s a thing that people talk about and say a lot, but it’s not true. If you’re good at showing and grooming and doing all your stuff, you can absolutely do very, very well in AKC, just like you can do in a UKC show.
I think UKC is a little less formal. You’re not seeing a whole lot of St. John’s suits, which I don’t own, by the way, but people do. And those are up to $500 for a skirt suit.
And I’m just like the money, like pearl clutch if I had them. But I don’t think the stakes are any lower at a UKC show. I have a dog from a lady who is very active in UKC in Minnesota, because those are the shows that are available in her area.
And she also does favor the working dog stuff, over AKC’s fancy reputation, but she could absolutely do all those things with AKC too, and be just as successful because she’s very good. It’s not unique, and it’s not like she’s landlocked in the UKC. The UKC and the AKC are actually reciprocal registries for most breeds.
So as long as the standards are pretty coherently aligned, AKC will absolutely take a dog from UKC and give it AKC papers, if it has a pedigree, if it’s registered with UKC. They’re not oppositional fighting organizations. They’re parallel, but they’re very related and very similar.
I don’t see the point in me trying to participate in UKC, because there is not a single show within a four state radius of me. It’s not an opportunity for me to easily go do. Whereas AKC, I can get to like four shows a year within a few hours.
Julie Swan | 1:18:19
And you’re also president of the AKC official club. So that works out good too.
Natalie Thurman | 1:18:20
Yeah. Well now, yeah. I mean, I haven’t always been, it’s been a year.
I joined the Club in 2020, which was not a great year for anybody. But I attended a national specialty in 2021 that was supposed to be held in 2022. I met people.
I got a feel for the organization. I got a feel for what I did and didn’t agree with. And I also got kind of a feel of who was in charge at that point in time.
And maybe opportunity areas for the club and what they could actually use me for. So I then got active in the tech team, the committee, and I redid the website. I joined the health committee, and we’re getting the health survey out, which is very important.
There are things that I could do, even not as president, that were very useful and helpful and constructive to the club. And I think a lot of people maybe don’t realize, that regardless of your breed, there are opportunities for you, even if this is your first Schnauzer, go and join the breed club and be like, I am happy to help in this area. And I’m good with tech because I am a young person.
Or have you considered this. . . But don’t bring stuff to the club and then be like, okay, you’re welcome for the idea, now figure it out. Volunteer, volunteer to actually make your idea a thing. They love that.
Not everybody loves it. I won’t lie. Not everybody is very embracing of, like online payments.
That was a big thing for me. I got that going for the club.
Julie Swan | 1:20:01
Oh, that’s huge.
Natalie Thurman | 1:20:03
I don’t want to mail a check, and I’m sure if I don’t want to, a lot of people don’t want to. So I got that going, and our renewals went up, and people were happier, and happier people stick with the club, which is good for the club and it’s good for the breed. Because when you only have five club members doing whatever the heck they want, it’s not good for the breed.
You need more people, not fewer. So, the club is older than me, which I respect. It is also the year of our Lord, 2025.
So we need to join this modern era of the world without trashing anything that’s happened. We do need to move forward into this modern world and have modern things. And there’s stuff like, why are we mailing a magazine to people who don’t want a physical magazine?
Give them a PDF in their email and they will be happy as a clam, and it will save the club $3,000 a year.
Julie Swan | 1:21:09
Huge, right?
Natalie Thurman | 1:21:10
Huge. Yeah. And just little tweaks like that is how I think breed clubs are going to be able to actually survive this because down economy, down times, people are just not going to pay the extra $40 to stay in the club maybe. Or maybe they just don’t have it, you know?
And it’s important to be like, yes, dogs are not the be all end all of life, especially for people who have a family. Some people treat their dogs like the be all end all of life, but that’s not what we’re talking about. But there are real people out there, with real good intentions, who want to be involved, and we should let them be involved, regardless of if this is their first dog or not.
And so that’s how I’ve been approaching the club for the last year. I’ve been trying to get more members. We’ve got a lot of new people, which is great because new people bring new energy.
Julie Swan | 1:22:00
Oh, sure. Along with new ideas and all kinds of stuff. Was there anything that you did to bring in new membership that you could share?
Natalie Thurman | 1:22:09
It wasn’t me personally, but the club has approved where it’s a lower entry cost for people who bought a puppy from a code of ethics breeder, for example. So if they’re already starting off on that right foot, we want to encourage those people to get more involved with the club, not less.
So they’re going to a health testing breeder. The club has verified membership in good standing and they’re supporting our breeders. We want to support them.
So come on down. And the online payments and stuff, but recruiting is up. My goal is to not get it as a political organization.
It’s really easy to backslide into just like, well, I don’t like her. So I’m not renewing. I’m not a perfect person and I don’t say everything right.
I know that.
And I also know, I don’t know everything and I admit that freely. And if I say something wrong, I will apologize and own it. But I also know that I’m not for everyone, and in the position of president, that that weighs heavy, because I do worry that people will be like, “well, I’m going to leave the club because I don’t like Natalie.”
And I’m like, nothing that has happened in the club has been about me, or just because of me. And that’s another thing where it’s like, “oh, well, you’re the president. Can you do this for me?”
And I’m like, I can bring it before the board, but we vote. And I am one vote max. I am not the board.
It’s not the Natalie show. It is the Anatolian Club board that is doing things. So yeah, there’s lots of that where it’s like, I understand why you think that, but actually this is how it works.
Have you read our bylaws? Just trying to do that in a nice constructive way is not always easy for me. Because I’m like, I had to read the bylaws.
Why haven’t you? But you know, stuff like that. And I know there’s people who don’t like me, and I can’t help that.
What I can do is get the breed survey out, so that we can actually edit our CHIC health test requirements. And what I can do is work on breed history stuff, and get pedigrees uploaded from the seventies and forward of ancient dogs that we’ve had registered in the club that have lived in a binder in somebody’s garage for 50 years.
Julie Swan | 1:24:44
Wow.
Natalie Thurman | 1:24:45
That’s something I can do. That’s tangible and that I can do that. I can get it into a pedigree program.
We have to pick one. So if you have a recommendation, let me know. But there’s projects that I think are very productive and helpful.
And then there’s the other stuff that’s personal, that is not even part of the conversation for me. I don’t have it on my website that I’m the president of the club. I don’t have it on my Facebook profile.
I don’t talk about it. If somebody is asking for advice about, whatever, or Anatolians specifically on social media, I’ll answer them. “I’m not telling them I’m the president. Listen to me.”
I think that’s so gross and weird.
The only people who actually know that I’m the club president are people who go to the website and look at the board page, I think. Or who are actually members who get emails from me. Like I send out newsletters.
I think communication has been a thing that dog clubs have not historically done very well.
Julie Swan | 1:25:44
Oh gosh no, they’ve been terrible.
Natalie Thurman | 1:25:45
So I started out monthly and people were like, it’s kind of a lot. So now I’m trying to be not like three times a month emailing them, but like once or once a quarter. I took the summer off because I was so busy.
But I’m trying to maintain connection to the members, and have an open door. I’m like, “if you have a problem, please come to us in an official capacity. Don’t text me at 6 PM on a Saturday and expect me to do something for you in a presidential capacity.”
I’m going to a birthday party. But email me at president dot club. And I will get it on an agenda for a board meeting, or I will ask for you and get the right answer if you have a question.
But it’s retraining people because they’re not used to that, but people are taking it well generally. So that’s been nice. But it’s a lot of responsibility and I don’t take it lightly.
Managing a board of people with very different preferences and opinions and histories with the breed is also super fun. And I came in like a bull in a china shop, and I was like, we will not talk about people who are not in the room and not here to defend themselves. We will not call each other names.
We will not speak poorly of one another in public. We will not disparage the club or past club board members. We will not do it.
And we will not talk over each other in a zoom meeting. And we will be respectful and we will have consequences when we can’t manage that. And it’s been so easy.
Like everyone has been so great. And some of these people do not get along in real life.
Julie Swan | 1:27:30
Wow.
Natalie Thurman | 1:27:31
They just don’t. But I’m like, this is not about us. Take off your me hat, and put on your club hat, and come to the meeting and just be here for club business.
Because it’s not our business. It’s the club and it’s been super successful. So it’s been great.
Julie Swan | 1:27:48
That’s really good. I’m happy for you.
Natalie Thurman | 1:27:49
Yeah. And I came in with a lot of goals and a lot of ideas and things. And I luckily went and talked to other people that I know in purebred dogs who have been club president or at least board members.
And the resounding answer was slow down, take a breath. Don’t just do everything you want to do all at once. Because when you alienate people as the president, that’s what you’re remembered for.
Not anything you got done. And I was like, “Oh,” so that was a little like, “wahwah,” but it’s going well. It’s not going as fast as I would like, obviously.
Because I’m like, go, go, go get it done. It’s happening at sometimes a glacial pace, but it’s progress, and we’ll take it at this point, because we’re all volunteers in the dog club. No one is being paid for this.
We’re paying to do this. So I need to manage my expectations of volunteers, maybe internally.
And I would hope that they would manage their expectations for me as a volunteer. But at the end of the day, it’s not about us. It’s about the dogs.
And I know that a lot of dog clubs can seem like an us or them club, and very exclusive. I know a lot of breed clubs will not let new people in, period. Which I don’t agree with personally, but I also can’t tell them how to do their stuff. If you’re in one of those breeds that you’re not allowed to have a voice in your breed standard, and you’re not being included, or even deigned a response when you reach out, that can also be a contributing factor to choices of continuing with a breed, I think.
Nobody really wants to be long-term in a place where they are seen as less than or not supported by other breeders. For breeders, the historical patterns is that we have three people we work with, and everyone else can suck rocks. And that’s not workable today.
You can’t just have your A-list of people who you love and want to work with. At some point, you will have to go outside your own lines, and when you do if you called them names or sued them in the past, it’s going to be hard to work with them in the future. And if people just universally hate you in a breed, come to a different breed.
Julie Swan | 1:30:18
Yeah, I see that. I find it really frustrating. There’s a lot of gatekeeping in breeds with the older breeders. And it’s not that the older breeders are wrong, they have their standards. If you guys remember my story about the guy who gave me false confidence, and how easy it was to breed, for better or worse. I mean, I’m here, but it was muck.
So they understand the depth of what needs to be done. They understand how hard it is. They understand the struggles, and they know it’s not for everyone. But it’s also not for them to make that decision for you, and I think that’s what’s so hard.
Natalie Thurman | 1:30:57
And you can protect a breed into extinction too. I think that’s something that is not talked about a whole lot. When I moved to Montana, I wanted a real Anatolian. It’s not like I like went and sought out a crossbreed. No one would sell me, a 22-year old with goats in Montana, a puppy. No one. No one I could find.
Julie Swan | 1:31:21
Oh, it’s brutal. It’s such a common story hear all the time.
Natalie Thurman | 1:31:26
And it’s not that they’re bad people. A lot of them are still in the club. Do they remember me from from 15 years ago? No, they don’t, and I don’t take it personal. But it is a pattern that is not unique to Anatolians. And it’s with good intention, they’re not trying to be mean or exclusionary or gatekeepey, they’re trying to protect the breed they love.
But, there’s a big but, when you protect something with a iron fist, and you won’t let it go, and you only will sell to four people. A, it’s not good for the gene pool because y’all are all cousins now, least, if not better. And B, you’re dying eventually, we all die, and when we don’t let new people in, our breed can die with us.
And that’s horrific, and it’s not the first thing they jump to. They’re concerned with “oh they’re gonna doodle it” they’re going to breed it to a poodle. “Oh they’re not going to treat it as well as I would,” that’s a big thing, any breeder in any breed, when you’re looking at a potential home, and if you can even potentially say they will not treat this puppy that I made, and loved, and planned, and worked for, which is valid, they won’t treat them as well as I will so I might as well just keep the puppy, we get into a bad situation.
You have to trust that other people can make good decisions, and when we’re unwilling to do that, then it gets to be like why are you breeding? Why are we here if we’re never going to let go and trust somebody else? We’re never going to mentor someone else to breed, and not see them as competition?
Julie Swan | 1:33:23
Do you think it’s a scarcity mindset?
Natalie Thurman | 1:33:30
A little. But I also think they feel a very big weight of responsibility, especially club founders, and people who’ve been in the breed, or who are raised in the breed. My mentors, who are second generation, so their parents raised and bred Anatolians, and they raised and breed Anatolians, and their children are now the third generation in the club raising and breeding Anatolians. They feel a very deep, deep sense of responsibility for the breed. If something bad happens in the breed, they feel it. We all feel it a little, but I feel like it’s more devastating to them, because it’s part of their soul at that point. And they’re not trying to be mean, but sometimes they are. It happens.
But there are different people, and if you don’t know that backstory, it’s very easy to write someone off as a zealot or as a jerk and a gatekeeper, and just not a nice person. When really all they are doing is loving the breed too hard, and grasping it too tightly. They have good intentions, but in the end, it means that your line dies with you. And that’s not good for anybody. It’s definitely not good for the breed.
Julie Swan | 1:34:37
What do you think’s the solution? Any ideas?
Natalie Thurman | 1:34:43
I’ve tried talking to people about it. There’s been some progress I feel like in the last few years. I think younger breeders getting on socials, showing how they whelp a litter, showing how they raise a litter, and kind of being more of an open door situation. In that case, I as a breeder can go look at how you whelped your last litter, and be like “I don’t hate any of this. It’s not the way I would have done it. It’s not my way. But you know what, it’s a way, and those puppies turned out great. So I would trust you with a breeding quality female.”
Are the older generation people on Facebook and Instagram? Definitely not TikTok. But if you can network, I think networking amongst breeders is very underrated.
I really like your Dog Breeder Society, because there’s people with very different breeds, very different backgrounds, even the same type of working dogs we have very different ideals and goals. But when someone says “I have this problem, have you ever seen this?” Or “what did you do for this?” Or “do you have a referral for me for this type of issue in this city for a puppy buyer?” We’re there for each other. And I think that’s very important because you are not an island. No matter how much you wish you were. It’s not functional to be an island.
And breeding, the longer you do it, the more you realize it’s not all puppies and rainbows. We all have bad days. We all have devastating losses. We all have stuff where either we make a mistake, which we’re human we’re going to make mistakes. Either you made a mistake, or it wasn’t even in your control, something bad just happened, and when you have family members who say adopt don’t shop, and villainize you for breeding, who can you go to, to cry and say I lost a puppy today.
Julie Swan | 1:36:33
Yeah. And they don’t understand it. Or they think you should be, because it happens, and so sometimes we can put it in perspective very quickly, or we’re more focused on how to prevent it next time. And they’re like why aren’t you crying about this. And that’s frustrating too. Or judgment that you just don’t care. It’s like “no, I care a lot, but I’ve been through this.”
Natalie Thurman | 1:36:55
And the responsibility moving forward, I have to learn from this or else.
Julie Swan | 1:37:01
It’s like you have a litter of eight. And humans have one baby, it’s just such a different process. It’s fast. I wish our pregnancies were 63 days that’d be nice.
Natalie Thurman | 1:37:13
So nice. Although we’d get stretch marks for days. I don’t know, that’d be very fast, maybe not.
Julie Swan | 1:37:22
That’s so true. I know, I know, it’s hard.
Like you said, I do love when you find that community of breeders. Which I’m not gonna lie, they’re inside the Dog Breeder Society. They care, they understand, they’re gonna help you, they care about your outcome and about you as a person, and they’re not going to judge you. And I think that’s been so hard in the dog breeding world. I really think it comes from, there’s so much to do in dog breeding, so at any given point in time, you’re going to be failing at something. It’s just how it works. Pick something, it’s going to be something.
Natalie Thurman | 1:37:56
Especially because we’re all Type A, trying to rule the world people.
Julie Swan | 1:38:02
Well we all want to have everything. I think that’s one of the appeals of dog breeding. I get to be home, or I get to be with my kids, or I get to do this, or I get to have my own schedule, and then I get to be with dogs I get to do all this.
And it’s just so much to manage, you have to have so many good habits in place, so many systems in place, and then there’s a lot of variables because there’s live animals, and customers, and all of a sudden you’re drowning. I feel like every time breeders go online, and they’re like I’m struggling here, people are like “why are you breeding,” and that’s not helpful.
Natalie Thurman | 1:38:30
No, it’s super not helpful, it’s just demoralizing. Is that is that our goal, to demoralize others? Purebred people have this very high reputation of sh**ting all over cross breeders. Which I think is interesting, how I became the president of this organization, because I started with a cross, an Anatolian cross was my first dog. And I bred it right, so I was Satan to a lot of these people.
Like straight up a lot of them. And I had frank conversations with them when I first joined the club. When I first went to that specialty, they cornered me in a restaurant, and were like “do you think that your crossbreeds are better than purebred Anatolians,” expecting me to say yes and welcome the fight. And I was like “no, I think they’re accessible to normal people getting started, who care about their livestock, or their kids, or property, or whatever.” People will sell them one. And that kind of stopped them all in their tracks. They were like oh.
And these were some of the people who refused to sell me a puppy because I was too young or I was too whatever. They just kind of were like “that was not the answer we were expecting today.” I was like yeah, I’m not here to fight anybody. I understand why people crossbreed dogs, and a lot of it is because purebred dog people have not done a great job taking care of their puppy buyers, being supportive, welcoming new people.
You know what doodle breeders do super good? Not just marketing, they’re nice to people. Shock.
Julie Swan | 1:40:20
Whoa, did you really just say that.
Natalie Thurman | 1:40:27
Yeah, a breeder is nice to people. And that’s honestly how they got the market share. And that is what it is. Do I want a doodle? No. I do not. Am I pissed that they’re making Anatolian doodles? Yeah, because that is so conflicting of instincts and stuff. That is a nightmare of a dog. It’s internal turmoil in its brain with fighting conflicting instincts, is not fair in my mind for a human to create. Because you’re making problems for that dog, that will then transfer to the people around them, and that’s not great.
Julie Swan | 1:41:01
And I will say though, in my experience, because I do work with a ton of doodle breeders, that is not all of them. Today it’s actually the minority. The majority of doodle breeders I work with, and talk to, are super on top of it. They have to do double health testing, and they follow through. They really take care of their buyers and their dogs.
Natalie Thurman | 1:41:23
They take care of their buyers, they take care of their families, and their dogs, yeah. We have doodle breeders that come to, I’m a member of the all breed club here locally, which anyone can join by the way. If your breed club won’t let you in you probably have an all breed club locally in your area that you can join. And you can find them on akc.org. But we have doodle breeders come to our eye clinic, and some people were like, gasp. And I was like, “thank you for coming, this is awesome to see you.”
Seriously there’s no reason to be a jerk to people who are doing the right thing, just not the way you want them to do it. You’re not the boss of them, unless you pay their bills, you don’t get an opinion. And if they’re doing the right thing, we want to again, like a puppy, reinforce the behavior we want to see. Even if you don’t want to see them making crossbreed puppies or whatever, you want to see them health testing. Reinforce that, encourage that, be nice.
Julie Swan | 1:42:24
Yeah, oh absolutely. Essentially, there is so many more variables in breeding doodles, that they’ve taken on this giant project when they take on breeding doodles. And they’ve done a lot of extra work, for some it’s just non-negotiable, they just love them that’s what they do, but I think we don’t appreciate enough what they’re doing.
Natalie Thurman | 1:42:48
No, legit. And this is probably gonna bite me in the a** with the Anatolian Club people, but at the end of the day we are here on this earth for a very limited time, and it is up to us to decide what we want the impact of that short short life to be. And do you want your impact of your short life to be I shamed her, I made her feel bad about her life choices making doodles?
Who is that helping? It’s not making your life any better. It doesn’t make your dog win anymore. It doesn’t make them better at their job, or cuter, or fancier, or more correct to the standard. And everyone starts somewhere. I’m proof that somebody who starts in functional crossbreeds can transfer over to purebred dogs if people aren’t dicks about it. It’s much easier to transition when people are receptive and not aggressive.
I’m just stubborn. So I did it anyway. But we all have a choice when we wake up in the morning to choose violence and choose jerkedness, or be nice. And I would encourage people to just be nice.
Julie Swan | 1:43:57
It goes a lot farther, and it’s just so much easier. It’s more you don’t feel bad at the end of it.
Natalie Thurman | 1:44:02
They don’t feel bad either, let’s be honest. They feel they did the right thing, being mean to people on the internet or at a dog show.
Julie Swan | 1:44:12
It’s an unevolved personality trait, yeah.
Natalie Thurman | 1:44:20
Just be nice man. Pour one out, be nice. The dogs don’t care at the end of the day. Your dog’s not barking at them because they’re a doodle, your dog’s barking at them because they’re in your yard. It’s a miscommunication.
I think that all dog breeders can really benefit from not just people in their own breed, but other breeds. And just being nice, and even if you haven’t always been nice, and there’s screenshots out in the ether. I’ve got screenshots out there floating around of me, that I wasn’t a very nice person. I think we’ve all had our moments where we were not very nice. That’s not precedent setting for the rest of your life. You can change, you can evolve, and you can be nice. Bears are gonna bear and people are gonna people, and all we can control is us.
Julie Swan | 1:45:23
It’s so true. Exactly, exactly.
So if you were going to give advice to new breeders starting out, what would you
Natalie Thurman | 1:45:28
Of any breed?
Julie Swan | 1:45:30
Yeah any breed, just new breeders getting started. What would be something that you would say “hey, don’t forget to focus on this.”
Natalie Thurman | 1:45:33
Health is my pet project. I truly believe in it, and I do think there is a huge place for it. But at the same time, it’s not a guarantee and it’s not perfect. You can have two excellent hip parents produce a dysplastic puppy.
So what I think is actually the most important thing, is having a mentor that you actually vibe with, and can reliably trust. Don’t just pick a friend who won’t tell you when you’re doing something wrong. Someone who will be like “hey I’ve seen this happening in your litters and have you considered. . .” Because a friend is just going to be a yes man, a cheerleader, and not call you on your sh**.
I think it’s very important to have somebody who is not going to lead you astray, but is strong enough with you to be like “hey I don’t really like this, do you like this about your program?” Because without an outside, not yes man source, kennel blindness is real. Believing that your dog’s poop doesn’t stink, and all my puppies are perfect, all my puppies are breeding quality, all my puppies are show quality, or working quality, or you know whatever, it’s easy to fall into that trap. Because you love them and you’re close to it. You’re in it, and you’re doing your best, and you think that you’re producing the best. That’s not always how it works.
So I think being able to have a reliable, honest, trustworthy, experienced, person to call you on your st** is probably one of the key things that has made me successful in this. Having someone I can, not even just one, I have multiple people I can go to and say “what went wrong here? What did I do, and how can I fix it?” And being open to that feedback. And actually fixing it.
I think a lot of mentor relationships get broken when the mentor feels like you’re taking advice and then actually not implementing it at all.
Julie Swan | 1:37:42
I agree with you.
Natalie Thurman | 1:37:46
It’s not rewarding to them at that point. They’re giving you a lot of knowledge and experience. And if you don’t take it, and at least consider, and if you don’t do what they recommend, at least explaining to them, take the time, they took the time to give you the advice, it only makes sense to take the time and explain to them like “hey I know you said this, I can’t swing it because of this” or “I’m going to try this first, and if my way doesn’t work then I will definitely try your way. I appreciate your time.” But when you start just asking asking asking, and not doing anything about it, that’s where riffs in breeds really hit.
Julie Swan | 1:48:24
I see that in some coaching clients. They will come to me with a problem, and I will say “okay, these are your options: this this, this, and this.” And then the very next call, they have the same question. And what you’re realizing is they aren’t making the decision, and they’re not taking action. And what that shows me, and it’s a very human problem, but if you see that in yourself, you have to figure out “okay look why am I not taking action? What benefit am I getting out of this?” Or “am I trying to avoid a loss?” Because the loss doesn’t get cheaper or easier the longer you wait.
Natalie Thurman | 1:49:04
For sure, it’s a thing in that like in a professional sense too.
Julie Swan | 1:49:10
But I’m glad you brought it up. I would say not all mentors are going to be for everything. It’d be very hard to find a mentor who will be good in everything. So don’t worry if you have a mentor for whelping, and a mentor for managing your breeding dogs, and you know there’s a lot of different things to have a mentor for.
Natalie Thurman | 1:49:30
And not all of those are breed specific. If you have a toy breed, you’d probably want a whelping mentor who has dealt with toy breeds, because it’s very different than my breed. But there’s a lot of crossover that’s the same species, they just look a little different. Having different ones for different things is totally valid.
And what’s really nice is if you also bring something to the table. New breeders tend to be “like well I don’t know anything.” Yes you do. You’ve read books, you’ve tried to learn about this, and so you can have informed questioning when you go to them. And you can also obviously offer, like “I was thinking this,” so they’re not doing all the mental load work, and it’s not all on them.
Julie Swan | 1:50:25
Such good advice, because yes, a lot of times we have a tendency when they get back to us to just unload every question on them. And that’s very exhausting.
Natalie Thurman | 1:50:35
A lot of mental work.
Julie Swan | 1:50:36
It’s much better to be more focused on this “okay I’ve looked at this, these are my pros and cons, what am I missing?”
Natalie Thurman | 1:50:41
Yeah, and if you ask them what you’re missing, then you can actually finish and make your own decision. And you’re not asking them “what should I do?” What should I do comes with the expectation that you will go do that now. And that’s not a given. And that causes rifts and issues in any relationship, especially one like this.
Julie Swan | 1:51:05
It’s good advice for sure. Because you can definitely burn your bridge with your mentor. Your mentor does not have to be the person you bought your dog from. Sometimes that’s more of a conflict of interest than anything. But it’s work for the mentor, so make it worth their time. Maybe would you even say some of those skills if your mentor is older, would be bringing some of your tech skills if you’re younger?
Natalie Thurman | 1:51:29
Yeah, build them a website. I’m not even joking. Contribute something to the relationship, or at least send them a bottle of wine for the holidays. Do something so that they you they know you’re appreciative of their time and efforts on your behalf. Because when people aren’t appreciated they don’t stick around.
Julie Swan | 1:51:45
It’s very true. And they’ll care less about the advice they give you.
Natalie Thurman | 1:51:50
It’ll be less thoughtful. They won’t pick up your call. It’ll just fizzle out, and you’ll be like “oh we just grew apart.” I’m like no, you were a jerk, the fizzling was done by you. You threw the pan on the fire and walked away.
Julie Swan | 1:52:02
Natalie thanks so much for coming on this show where can people find you?
Natalie Thurman | 1:52:08
Sure, so if they have questions about my dogs and my program, my website is apexanatolians.com. It’s pretty easy to find. You can also Google Apex and like ana, and it pops up if you don’t want to spell Anatolians. Contact information is all there.
If you have questions about the Anatolian Club, official stuff for club business goes to president at asdca.club. And that includes if you’re interested in joining. You don’t have to own an Anatolian to join, but you do have to own an Anatolian and have two sponsors to join with voting rights. So if you just think the Anatolian is a great breed, and you want to pay us annually to support the breed club, we would love to have you. And you’ll get my newsletters. Otherwise I’m on Facebook pretty regularly, and I’m on Instagram at Apex Anatolians.
Julie Swan | 1:53:08
Perfect. Thanks so much for coming on the show, it’s just been a pleasure hearing your story and sharing your wisdom.
Natalie Thurman | 1:53:11
Thank you so much for having me, I hope you have a happy holiday season.
Julie Swan | 1:53:16
Yes exactly and people should be eating more Christmas cookies.
Natalie Thurman | 1:53:21
Christmas cookies are the bomb.
