The 12 Days of Breeders is a series of interviews conducted with members of the Dog Breeder Society who are doing innovative, creative, and inspiring things in their dog breeding business. In each of these interviews we cover challenges each breeder has encountered, and how they’ve overcome those challenges to find success in their breeding program. Join me for all twelve of these interviews for inspiration, and countless actionable tips you can use to overcome (or avoid) challenges in your own dog breeding program! You can check out all of the interviews in this series here.
Andrea Jones of Maple Hill Doodles
In this 12 Days of Breeders interview, we welcome Andrea Jones of Maple Hill Doodles in Ohio. A 25-year veteran breeder of Goldendoodles, Cavapoos, and Cavadoodles, Andrea has built her program on advanced, and sometimes unconventional, health protocols. Andrea shares her techniques for holistic management, detailing the logistics of maintaining a non-vaccination protocol for her entire program, underpinned by a raw, species-appropriate diet. Critically, Andrea reveals how she’s raised the bar for buyers to solidify her own credibility, demanding a higher standard of commitment from her clientele. This episode is essential listening for any breeder looking to bring more holistic rearing into their program, covering not only her dog management techniques, but also her non-negotiable business rules: maintaining a mandatory financial escrow for emergencies, ensuring all contracts are attorney-reviewed and ironclad, and utilizing rigorous structural health clearances (OFA Hips/Elbows) that go beyond standard genetic testing.
Transcript
Julie Swan | 0:00
Welcome to the Honest Dog Breeder Podcast with me, your host, Julie Swan, where each week we dive in to discuss all things dog breeding so you can build a breeding business you love, producing dogs that fulfill their owners’ dreams. I believe you can have an honest dog breeding program that also pays the bills. So throw those pods in your ears while you’re cleaning kennels.
I’d love to join you. Welcome back to 12 Days of Breeders. You guys are in for a treat.
We have Andrea Jones of Maple Hill Doodles. Andrea breeds Goldendoodles, Cavapoos, and Cavadoodles. Thanks so much for coming on, Andrea.
Andrea Jones | 0:38
Oh, thank you for having me.
Julie Swan | 0:40
So first off, for those, like me when I started working with you, who are uneducated, can you explain the difference between a Cavapoo and a Cavadoodle?
Andrea Jones | 0:51
Yeah, so a Cavapoo is just Cavalier and Poodle, and the Cavadoodle, most people have probably not seen the photos of them, because not many people breed them, they look very similar to the Australian Labradoodle, and they’re very similar in the breed makeup. So they have Lab and Poodle, and Cavalier instead of Cocker.
Julie Swan | 1:20
That makes sense. And yes, I know they have a lot of similarities in appearance, but there is that little bit of difference in using Cocker versus Cavalier.
Andrea Jones | 1:28
Temperament-wise, I feel. I’m biased. I love the Cavalier.
Julie Swan | 1:34
Everybody loves them, right? Lady in the Tramp, can’t go wrong. I’ve got to drop this out there.
So you are actually allergic to dogs, and you’re a dog breeder.
Andrea Jones | 1:45
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 1:45
Can you tell us how you got started breeding dogs?
Andrea Jones | 1:51
Growing up, I always wanted to do something with dogs. I was obsessed with dogs, and I had always had allergies to miscellaneous animals, not to dogs. During my second pregnancy, a lot of things were happening in my body, and one of them was my asthma got worse, and I became allergic to normal shedding dogs, so Labs, Huskies, things like that.
And I happened to come upon an article talking about Poodles being, “hypoallergenic”. And a friend, her family, owned a little red Toy Poodle. And I had asked her, is this true?
Because to me, a dog is a dog is a dog. They’re all the same species, so how can one be allergy-friendly? And she said, no.
She said, you know, she really doesn’t drop hair in the house, and she is good for allergies. And so that’s kind of the catalyst. So I reached out to a red Poodle breeder, and she became my mentor, and that’s how I got started.
So red Poodles was my breed, toy and mini.
Julie Swan | 3:08
Very fun, very fun. So you did start originally with Poodles, okay. And then how did that turn into what you have now?
Andrea Jones | 3:17
So when I started breeding Poodles, doodles were a thing, but not a lot of people knew about them, including me. I grew up with retrievers and a lot of shedding dogs. We were a big dog family.
And I missed the retriever quality so much. I had kids, and I was like, oh, this is a way to get back what I missed, breeds that I missed having, in a safe way. I didn’t understand the whole thing of furnishings.
I just thought you put a Poodle and let’s say Golden or a Lab together, and then you have this non-shedding dog, which we now know is not true. It takes a few generations to really get them to the point where they’re allergy-friendly. But once I found out about what a doodle was, I was like, okay, let’s transition.
So I didn’t stop breeding Poodles immediately. We slowly transitioned over. And then I got to the point where I was just breeding Poodle mixes.
Julie Swan | 4:30
Yeah. So it started with just the Goldendoodles?
Because you had Poodles with Goldendoodles?
Andrea Jones | 4:37
It was actually a Labradoodle. Labradoodles for a very short time. I actually felt like it was easier to get the softer fleece coat with the Goldendoodles. So I kind of quickly, I guess, we had a few litters of Labradoodles.
But then I really shifted into Goldendoodles, because I thought the coats were easier to achieve. With the Labs, the difference between the Labs and Golden, the Labs have a coarser coat. So I was noticing we were having a lot of like wire hair type coats, and I really wanted the soft fleece.
So that was really the main switch for that.
Julie Swan | 5:24
No, that makes a lot of sense too. And those are easier to be hypoallergenic or more allergy-friendly?
Andrea Jones | 5:32
Not necessarily because Golden Retrievers and Labs are both considered unfurnished breeds. And that’s really what helps the allergies. It was the coat types.
I really wanted that soft fleece versus the wire kind of haired, so it was the coat texture, I guess. But because both breeds are unfurnished, and a Poodle has two copies of furnishings, it takes about the same time to get there with either breed.
Julie Swan | 6:02
That makes sense. That makes sense. I know.
I work with short hair, so, you know, I’m like brain dead on this stuff. I’m learning, but you know how it goes.
So then you had tried Labradoodles, and just the standard, right? Not Australian, just regular Labradoodles for a long time. Then you moved into Goldendoodles and that was going well.
And then where did the Cavadoodle come in and the Cavapoo?
Andrea Jones | 6:29
So we talked about previously, I am a really indecisive person, like with ice cream, I can’t decide on one flavor. I like a lot of flavors and that really seeps into my dog breeding. I had met a Cavalier when we were out, and she was just the sweetest little thing.
And then I stopped at an estate sale, and they had three Cavaliers in their yard, three. So while I’m there browsing things, I’m talking to the owner, and we were talking about Cavaliers because I had already got in my mind, I want to somehow incorporate them in my breeding.
And she, again, she had three. I was like, that’s really a good testimony. If they’re not great dogs, you probably aren’t going to have three of them.
And she really was the one who, I guess, pushed me into it, just by her opinions about the breed. So that’s where we started breeding the Cavapoos. And with the Cavapoos, some of our puppies were quite small, because with the Cavapoos that we were breeding, there was toys and minis down the line.
And I should say Poodles, toy and mini Poodles in the line. And so we were occasionally having very small puppies. And while they like kids, younger kids sometimes have a hard time, like toddlers being careful around these tiny puppies. And we also have families reaching out saying, “Hey, do you ever have large Cavapoos?”
Some breeders, they coined the term, I think, cuddle Cavapoos. And they are breeding them with, I think, a standard Poodle and the Cavalier. But I had really liked the idea of the Australian Labradoodle.
However, I wasn’t a big Cocker fan. I know there’s some good ones out there. My experiences were never great with Cockers.
But we had the Cavapoos. And I was like, you know what, what if we use Cavalier instead of Cocker, they will have the same size approximately, for the mix. And my first litter was quite close to what I wanted.
I was surprised they turned out really, really well. And my second litter sold out. It was a huge litter.
This mama had 14 puppies. And I never have litters that big, never. And once we opened the reservation list, I’m not kidding when I say within minutes, they were all reserved.
Because the families who got the first Cavadoodle litter we ever had, we had so many referrals from them. And so many people who had met their dogs who are like, “oh my gosh, I love your dog.” And so most of that second litter was sold just through referrals.
And they’ve been such a nice addition for families who want a lot of the Cockapoo temperament. But they want a dog who’s not quite as delicate. They want a little bit bigger dog.
They’re still compact enough to travel with them. But not everyone wants tiny dogs.
Julie Swan | 10:13
Yeah. Oh gosh, I know. I know.
I love how the Rat Terriers, they’re close to 20 pounds. So they’re not really delicate, but you can take them everywhere. And I think that’s a very popular size for many people with kids.
So I love it. I love it. Okay.
So that’s good. And you’ve been breeding for 25 years. Is that right?
Andrea Jones | 10:35
Yes, 2001 was our first Poodle litter.
Julie Swan | 10:38
Wow. Yes.
So this is nothing new to you. So somewhere in here, you started transitioning from standard breeding practices, to a more holistic approach, and doing natural rearing. Can you tell us a little bit of what goes into your more holistic approach?
Andrea Jones | 11:01
Yeah. So the first thing that a lot of breeders are probably familiar with is raw feeding. So we do prey model raw, so we’re not using vegetables or any sort of grain.
It’s strictly just prey model. And that’s what they’re weaned onto. So we’re not doing, mom who’s nursing to cereal or watered down kibble, and then raw.
Even if we weren’t going straight to raw when they’re weaning, mom is already doing that. Mom’s going to regurgitate. So she’s eating what she’s eating and she goes in there.
So they’re getting little samples from mom before we full on transition them. And another big part is just keeping their stress level down.
We do limit visits to our close friends and family who are familiar with the moms and the puppies, and the guardians, of course, can come visit them, because socialization is very important. But we’re trying to do it mindfully, so that we’re not bringing stress to the moms. Stressed moms can have stressed puppies.
And then, of course, the most controversial thing we do, is we stopped vaccinating before the puppies leave. We leave that up to the future family if they’re going to choose to go that route.
Julie Swan | 12:42
Yeah, that makes sense. You’ve ultimately left the vaccination decision to the families, but we’ll dive into that in a sec. But tell me a little bit more with this raw feeding.
Do you buy it commercial? Do you mix it yourself?
Andrea Jones | 12:54
So we just purchase it mainly. I still occasionally DIY if I’m feeling ambitious, But for the most part, we just buy it from a supplier.
There’s a lot of suppliers, and some people who raw feed choose to add fruits and veggies, and maybe grains like oats and whatnot, and there are suppliers that sell that. We strictly go with the prey model suppliers, and we make sure there’s no 3D or 4D meat used.
Julie Swan | 13:28
What are the three d’s?
Andrea Jones | 13:31
So there’s dead, dying, disease. And I forget what the fourth is. But I know those three of the D’s.
I forget the fourth. I can never remember.
Julie Swan | 13:49
Disabled, dying.
Andrea Jones | 13:53
Maybe. Yeah. Disabled might be the other one.
But basically, you’re wanting to use human grade quality proteins. So if the supplier uses charcoal, for instance, that’s indicating the meat is not a great quality if they’re adding charcoal to it. There’s really no reason for that, unless the quality is kind of bad.
So we use one main supplier. And I let all our families know that you can use them, or there’s a lot popping up. There’s a lot of them.
In fact, I just ordered from another supplier, pheasant heads, because my main supplier, they don’t have them. So that’s one thing they don’t have. So I did order from another company, and I think I ordered about 100 pounds to get the free shipping.
Julie Swan | 14:58
Is it expensive? People always want to know, how expensive is it? Or how does it compare to a kibble?
And then, how do you justify that difference if it is one?
Andrea Jones | 15:10
Yeah, there’s definitely a difference. Unless we’re talking like a prescription kibble, or there’s some boutique multi-level marketing type kibbles that are pretty expensive. But for basic kibble that you can go to the store and buy, raw is going to be more.
So I would say, depending on the protein, we pay an average of five to six dollars a pound. And puppies, at the age we have them, they eat approximately 10% of their body weight a day, divided into three meals. But by the time they’re fully grown, they’re only eating two to three percent of their body weight.
So, although it is more expensive, it still is very doable. It’s very doable. And for us, the biggest savings is in vet bills.
Now that our dogs are so much healthier. Everybody knows vet bills. You could hardly walk out the door without spending a couple hundred dollars.
Julie Swan | 16:18
Yeah. Oh yeah. So I just did some numbers. So a 20 pound dog, fed at three percent of its body weight, which is on the higher end of your numbers, would eat about 0.6 pounds a day and that would be 18 pounds a month. And so at your six dollars a pound, which is the expensive end, it’d be about $108 a month. So not really that different than high-end kibbles, which is what most of us are recommending anyway.
Andrea Jones | 16:45
Yeah, I mean, it’s less than Starbucks, going to Starbucks once a day, which we do. We have these splurges that we do, and you don’t realize how quickly it adds up. Maybe Starbucks isn’t the best example because they’re so expensive, but there are some people who do go daily.
So that’s kind of the example I give, it’s less than getting your coffee, or about the same.
Julie Swan | 17:13
And that makes sense. And to save yourself so many vet bills, it does make sense. So you say, okay, so we have the raw, your dogs are getting this premium nutrition, and then you have this really low-stress idea.
Can you explain a little bit more? Because I was thinking, like when I was going through my divorce, it was stressful at my house, not going to lie. And I realize, I was not a good mom back then.
I was a little strung out, and I didn’t get the laundry done on a routine basis. The kids would need more emotional time from me. And I was like, I need my own time.
And it was really hard. And I got thinking when you were explaining everything, it made so much sense. So have you seen a noticeable difference in your dogs since stopping letting visitors come?
Andrea Jones | 18:06
Oh, for sure. For sure. Previously when we would have visitors, we used to do it how some breeders are still doing it.
Where the family comes over, they’re playing with all the puppies for a while, and then they pick the one they want. We did it, and the moms, a lot of them were very unhappy. It was causing moms to really get stressed out, it wasn’t like I didn’t recognize that. I was under the mindset that good breeders allow clients to come over inside their house, meet all their puppies, meet the mom.
If the dad lives there, meet the dad. We’re told that this is what we should look for in breeders. So I was really putting the mom’s needs second.
I got to the point where I started just really recognizing that even if it means losing a sale, I still need to put mom’s needs first, because she doesn’t know these people coming over. She doesn’t understand they’re not going to cause harm to a puppy. My moms are much more relaxed now, because we really do limit who’s coming over when they have puppies.
It has to be someone they know. So our immediate very close friends or family, and the guardians, of course. But with the guardians, we even say, “hey, we need to limit how many people are coming.”
You know, you can’t bring your neighbors, which yes, did happen one time. Just stick to your immediate family, and the moms are super happy to see them. And we wait until puppies are three- to four-weeks-old, because we really want mom’s entire focus while the puppies are strictly nursing to be just on them.
And sometimes if the families come too early, their mindset switches to, ‘oh, when am I going home? Where’s my family?”
So what we do now works out better for the mom’s benefit. And that’s really the most important thing is the moms. And then of course, the puppies, because they’re going to pick up on the mom if she’s stressed.
Julie Swan | 20:28
Yeah, absolutely. They do. They read your energy.
Whenever my kids are strung out, I always have to look at my own behavior. It’s usually my fault.
Andrea Jones | 20:36
We don’t realize how greatly that affects the dogs.
Julie Swan | 20:40
Yeah. What were you seeing in your moms? Because I’m sure they weren’t biting people when they came over.
So like what did you actually see, that really made you notice how stressed out they were?
Andrea Jones | 20:52
Really just feeling very anxious, when a mom has her little puppies, and maybe you’re doing something with the puppies that mom doesn’t like. And, you know, she starts getting very anxious. Like, let’s say you have to weigh the puppies, and you have to take them away from her.
It was that behavior, because the mom dog was just so unsure what was going on. It really was just the stress that we were seeing in the moms. And I know there are some breeders who say, “Oh, my moms, they love everybody.”
And there are dogs like that. But it’s very natural for animals of all species, particularly the mother, to be nervous with strangers around their infants, even us humans.
We don’t want random people coming over, picking up our newborns, oddly enough, you know? It’s the same thing for dogs, and all species really.
And I feel like we do enough other things that will show you that you are getting a dog from a responsible breeder. So we have tons of Google reviews, people who have our puppies. We have the vet records that go with the puppies, and our vet, we’ve worked with her forever.
And we have a pretty long, comprehensive application. We do a lot of things, that in my opinion, show that we are breeding responsibly. I also try to explain to them, because they’ll say, “well, we want a puppy to choose us.”
And we’ve discussed this, that puppies really don’t necessarily choose you. It just happened to be, when you were over at 2:30 that afternoon, that was the puppy that walked up to you. But if you come back at 5:00, that puppy may be hunkered down in the corner and totally ignoring you, appearing to be antisocial, while another puppy who ignored you the first visit is totally all over you.
We as the breeders are spending so much time with the puppies. So we’re really the ones who can tell you, okay, this is maybe the more outgoing puppy, or this puppy really gravitates towards children, that type of thing.
The other thing too, is they’ll say, “well, you know, I’ve read, we really need to meet the parent dogs. If we don’t meet the parent dogs, the breeder is hiding something.”
And it’s like, no, this mother maybe is really friendly. If you would meet her when she’s not pregnant or nursing, and you would meet her out in the world, or maybe at her guardian’s house, and she doesn’t have puppies. You can’t ascertain her true temperament when she has puppies, because she may come off anxious or even aggressive. That’s not who she is. So you really can’t ascertain the adults temperament when they have a litter.
Now the males don’t necessarily care about the puppies. They’re not going to go into protective mode like the moms are, but a lot of my studs that I’m using are with other breeders. So I’m using an outside stud, and certainly I can’t say, “hey, here’s the breeder’s address.
Go over there and you can meet her guy.” It just doesn’t work that way. And also, you really can’t meet the parents when they’re not nursing or pregnant, because they, in our case anyways, live with a guardian family.
So we would never ask the guardian family to have strangers come over and hang out with their dogs.
Julie Swan | 24:52
Yeah, no, definitely. That’d be kind of weird. That makes a lot of sense.
What percentage of your dogs are in guardians, would you say, give or take?
Andrea Jones | 25:01
Basically all of them. We have four dogs. We had five dogs and that was our limit.
We had one pass away of old age earlier this year. So now we have our four, we call them our personal dogs. They’re retired breeding dogs, but they’re our forever dogs.
For now, I’m still not ready to add another dog. Things are chaotic enough with four dogs really. So at this point, all of our breeding dogs are in guardian homes.
Now two of our dogs, two of our males, Jack and Kirby, they are breeding dogs. Other breeders that I work closely with use their stud service. I no longer use them because they’re related to too many of our girls.
So I’m at the point where I’m using outside studs, but they’re really not working that often. Just a handful of times a year. So generally, they’re strictly just pets.
Julie Swan | 26:10
Can you share with us how you find good guardians? Everybody’s always looking for good guardians.
Andrea Jones | 26:15
It is so hard. In the beginning, we made a lot of mistakes.
My contract, my guardian contract has been revised, I can’t even tell you how many times. Because every time something happens that we weren’t expecting, “okay, we need to add this to the contract.” I would say my recent guardians have been referrals from other guardians that we have that we really like. They are getting an unbiased opinion about what it’s like to be a guardian, the benefits, and there are some downsides.
That’s how I would say we got the last three to four guardians, through other current guardians. And that really is my preference, because the other guardian is giving a perspective to them as a guardian, which I’m not.
So they’re letting them know this is our experience. And obviously they were mostly happy with it, because they are referring us. I know some breeders like to use only people they know really well, so they’ll say “all of our guardians, they’re either family or friends. We don’t work with strangers.”
I’m kind of the opposite. I don’t do business with family.
The old advice about not mixing business with family and friends. I’ve been lucky.
I would say overall, we’ve had a couple rocky experiences that we worked out. But I would say just really, really do your due diligence, to make sure they are prepared. The biggest problem we had, is probably them not expecting how much they would miss the dog, when the dog was whelping.
So this goes for females. The males come over, they do their job and then they go home. They don’t even have time to miss them.
But the females, once the puppies are three- to four-weeks-old, even if they want to come every week and visit them, that’s okay because we’re trying to be sensitive to their needs too, but they miss the dog. And also have a good attorney. Don’t use any old attorney, use an attorney who specializes in animal law with contracts, because they’ve seen it all.
They’ve seen it all. They can warn you, “okay, we need to add this.” That was money very well spent.
It was not cheap, but that was really important to have a very good contract.
Julie Swan | 29:05
Yeah, that makes sense. Have you had to use the contract much, or do you find just having it in place has prevented issues?
Andrea Jones | 29:12
One time I almost did. They kind of ghosted me for about three or four months. Thankfully, I did have a really strong contact.
And one of the things in the contract was, if need be, I can come, it’s a 24-hours notice, pick up the dog for whatever reason, not to take it, just to pick it up, maybe go to the vet, just to look at the dog to make sure the dog’s okay. But I said, I will be there. And I gave her 24-hours notice.
I said, I will be at your door. And then suddenly she started replying.
Julie Swan | 29:50
And then did she follow through? Was she trying to not follow through, do you think?
Andrea Jones | 29:55
I think so. I read in one of the pet groups, one of the dog groups, on Facebook, someone had asked about being a guardian. They were looking at a breeder’s puppies, and they could either buy one, or there was a guardian opportunity. So they were asking people’s opinions and there was a lot of them.
And one person said that her mom was a guardian, and she didn’t break the contract. She did everything but that, to be so difficult, that the breeder just, she signed the dog over. She just said, this is just too much trouble.
She really made everything very, very difficult for the guardian without technically breaking anything. And the person who wrote this was very proud of their mom, that their mom had done something so crafty. And I think that was what was going on with this guardian, because she didn’t technically break anything in the contract.
But everything that I missed in the contract before giving her the dog, she found loopholes for everything. Now the dog is fine. She loves the dog.
It’s just that she didn’t want to be a guardian anymore, was my impression. And we only had one more litter at that point. So it worked out, but then I really added more things to my contract at that point.
Julie Swan | 31:23
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
I think something that is underestimated is their attachment to their dog, which is great. I mean, you want that. That’s why you’re doing it this way. But it is really hard when they are like, “I don’t want to give my dog up for six weeks” or whatever the case is.
And then like you said earlier, it’s really hard to have people come see the guardian dog in those first few weeks, because they kind of forget they’re being a mom and they’re like, “we could just sit on the couch.”
My little Mochaccino, she has seven puppies right now. And she was like, “I don’t need to worry about them. We could just sit on the couch and watch a movie together.”
I was like, no, you really need to feed them. They’re hungry.
Oh man. Okay. So that makes sense.
Do you have them pay for the guardian?
Andrea Jones | 32:04
No, I don’t. So the lawyer who I worked with, he does a lot of guardian contracts. He said, don’t have them pay anything for the dog because if it goes to court, that’s going to kind of look like they own the dog, even if they pay a lesser amount. And he said, make sure, and this is a mistake I made, make sure that you get the microchip before the puppy leaves.
It’s in your name. And if you get a license, a dog license, have that in your name. One thing that I started to do as well, was instead of them having the dog for annual vet exams, I do that. Because when I go to a reproductive vet for getting their yearly cardiac or whatever, or just progesterone testing, things like that, they do a general exam during that time, their annual exam.
So we’re getting that done anyways. There wasn’t really a reason for the guardian to do it. So basically the guardian does not need to bring the dog to the vet at all, unless the dog is injured or sick when the dog is in their custody.
But basic care, all the vet records are in my name. So that was the big thing, is really to try to have everything in your name, and have a paper trail that this is my dog.
Julie Swan | 33:37
So basically from the outside, looking in, it is your dog that you’re allowing someone else to live with. And when the contract is complete, then you’re surrendering your ownership.
Andrea Jones | 33:49
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 33:50
That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Okay. Very cool. That is very good.
That’s great. I never thought about it from the vet records, but it does make sense if you were to present them in court, look, I’ve been paying for this and doing this.
Andrea Jones | 34:02
And then I do the health testing. So the genetic testing that’s in my name. I bring them to a photo shoot with my photographer when they’re adults, once they’ve passed all our testing, I get all their glamor shots done.
I really have everything that I have paid for, for this dog, in my name. So really they’re covering food and leashes and treats, things like that. I don’t pay for that, but everything else I do actually pay for, and it’s all in my name.
Julie Swan | 34:41
Wow. Well, that makes a lot of sense, and it seems like it’s working out more for you now.
Andrea Jones | 34:46
Yeah. We’ve never had anyone go to court to try and prove ownership or anything like that. This person I mentioned, she was the closest that I’ve gotten to going to court, just because she kind of absconded with my dog. Never had anyone try to fight the contract.
Julie Swan | 35:09
Oh, that’s good. That’s really good.
Do you get pushback when you tell people they can’t visit? I know you address that you do it for your dogs, but is there anything that you’re explaining to them that has seemed to work?
Because I think a lot of breeders would opt for this just for simplicity in their family, but for their moms as well.
Andrea Jones | 35:31
Yeah, initially, because we know people, a lot of people anyways, are doing research before they get their puppy. They’re trying to do their due diligence and they’re reading these lists online that says, this is what you need to look for in a responsible breeder. And one of them is always on the list.
You need to go visit. You need to see where they’re raised. You need to meet the parent dogs.
So they’re thinking this is what I need to do to be a responsible buyer. So I totally understand where they’re coming from. Really explain to them, “you know what, this is not beneficial to the moms or the puppies.
Here’s the risk. We’re also raising them in our home, our private home. We’re a family, and it’s not really conducive to a healthy family life if you have the general public coming in and out all the time.”
And also, if I whelp puppies like in my bedroom, for instance, after they’re born, should I allow a stranger to come in my bedroom and see where the puppies are, where they’re raised for the first couple of weeks? Once you explain it, most people are like, “yeah, I get it” because they’re buyers, they don’t understand the breeder’s perspective. They don’t understand these are really good reasons why it’s not feasible to have people over like that.
And for the most part, they understand that we still occasionally get push back, and they’re like, “yeah, I read your policy. I read why, great reasons. I totally understand it.”
And then they want us to make an exception for them. So that is probably a buyer who we’re not a good match with. Because if they’re going to give us pushback on a policy that really is beneficial to the dog, what else are they going to push back on in the future?
So for the most part, once you explain it, they understand, and the ones who don’t, there are still breeders who allow visits. And if it’s working for them, that’s okay. It just didn’t work for us.
Julie Swan | 37:51
Yeah, it’s fine. And I think there is a big difference in temperament. Like my Rat Terrier females do really get stressed out from that visit in a very different way than my GSP puppies who are like, “So did you bring me cheese?
Because we could hang out if you brought me cheese.” It’s just such different temperaments. But yeah, I can definitely see certain breeds, bloodlines, everything. So that makes sense.
And you also hire your pictures, every time you send me pictures of your dogs, I’m just like, “oh, these are so good.” Your pictures are so good, but you hire a professional photographer, right?
Andrea Jones | 38:26
If you look at a picture and you’re like, this is so good, you can safely say I didn’t take it. I have a photographer who is the best. She is amazing.
I have worked with her now for, gosh, probably six or seven years. And she does amazing work. She just does amazing work.
And I’m very lucky to have her. I hope she never retires. She’s actually a vet full-time.
So she’s multi-talented. This is her little hobby business, but she just excels at it. For me, photos are very important.
I think photos are what helps sell. And if you have good photos, so her camera obviously is much better than my iPhone.
Even though the iPhones do great photos now, but her camera, she’s a professional. I just feel like when she takes them, you can really see the details of the puppy, and people are getting an idea of their little personalities like, “oh, this puppy really spoke to me” or whatever. And people really decide through better pictures, I think.
I mean, a good photo can make or break a sale. So for me, the photos, that’s something I’ll continue to pay for. So every single litter, we do at least one photo shoot.
And if we have some stragglers, older puppies, we’ll do maybe an additional photo shoot, or maybe even a third if they’re here for a while. She’ll send me a file with all the photos.
We give a copy of that to every owner. So they have all the photos from their puppy, if we did it like at six, seven weeks, they have all that. So it’s kind of like they have all the baby pictures.
They love it. They love it.
Julie Swan | 40:34
What a great gift. Yes, absolutely. I bet they love it. And that also really probably is peace of mind for them too, maybe they can’t visit, but they get all these really great pictures they can have.
Andrea Jones | 40:46
Right, right. And puppy mills. Because I know that’s one of the reasons you’re supposed to visit to make sure you’re not getting from a puppy mill.
Puppy mills typically aren’t bringing their litters to get professional photos. They might be, but I haven’t seen it. So that I think shows that we care enough to drive down to Akron, we spend a few hours at her studio.
And it’s a lot of work, but it’s fun. But that again, I think it shows, the puppies are clean, they’re happy. It’s just worth it.
It obviously cost a little more, but it’s worth it for sure.
Julie Swan | 41:25
But you’re also kind of in the middle of the land of Amish and some other stuff between, you’re in Ohio, but Ohio, Pennsylvania is the area. And I know there is a heavier amount, not just Amish, but there’s a heavier number of puppy mills out that direction. Does that change anything with your business?
Andrea Jones | 41:46
Yeah, people, for a couple of reasons, people want to know, okay, am I Amish? No, I’m not. Because they’ve been told stay away from Amish breeders.
But because there’s so many Amish, we live next to the township that’s the fourth largest Amish settlement, it’s right next door to us. So we have not only the concern of buyers that, “oh, look where they’re located,” and it’s sort of guilty by association, because I am right in the center.
But also, I hate to say it, for a lot of people, price is kind of the number one criteria for who they’re going to choose to buy a puppy from. My puppies are more than double, probably triple what they’re charging. For good reason, we have so much more that we put into our program.
But when you have such heavy competition of breeders, who are significantly lower than you are, whether it’s right or wrong, they’re going to take a lot of your business. So really, our customers are those who’ve done their homework, and they’re willing to pay more money for a puppy who has not come from a mill.
Julie Swan | 43:20
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I noticed, your puppy application is very extensive. You have a lot of open ended questions for them to talk about.
And I was really thinking about that. It’s the exact opposite of what I would normally advise. I’ll just be honest with you.
But when we were talking about it in your situation, I think it actually works out really, really well. Because when we were discussing this before, you said something to me that just hit home. And I thought, oh, yeah.
Because everyone there is really looking to avoid buying from a puppy mill. By having gauntlets on your puppy application, if you will, it actually works in your situation, because it shows that you’re vetting the buyers, which they figure if you were a puppy mill, you wouldn’t care so much, and you would make it easier. And so, because you’ve added that layer of difficulty in your puppy application, I think given your location, it’s a great move for you.
It actually works really, really well. So you would be kind of an exception to the normal situation.
Andrea Jones | 44:25
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 44:25
Yeah.
Andrea Jones | 44:26
Yeah. I think a lot of puppy mills, a lot of them don’t even have applications, but I have seen some websites where it’s, I kind of know that it’s a backyard breeder. And I think they feel like they have to have an application, but there’s like three questions on there.
So it’s kind of just a formality. It’s not a real application. But I have had buyers, ironically, when one of the questions is like, why specifically do they want a puppy from us? Why are they choosing Maple Hill Doodles?
And funny enough, a lot of times, one of their answers is, we can tell by the application, by the extensive application that you really care about who’s getting one of your puppies. Or as my husband says, it’s like an FBI investigation, like I’m a little too particular. But we’re the puppy’s first advocate. And another reason for a long application, if they’re not willing to take the time to fill out a detailed application, so we can kind of get to know them.
Puppies take far longer to take care of. So my thinking is, if you can’t even take the time to fill out this application, what is your commitment to taking care of a puppy when things get hard? So that shows their level of commitment straight away.
And too, by their answers, sometimes I’m getting just a bunch of yes or no answers. And I’m like, “oh, I can tell they raced through this.” And then others, I’m getting paragraphs, and they’re really wanting me to get to know them through the application.
That’s what I like. That’s what I want to see. I want to see all about their family.
Julie Swan | 46:18
That makes sense. And I think, it is an interesting element to your ideal puppy buyer. So your ideal puppy buyer, they want to prove themselves to you, just like they want you to prove yourself to them.
It is a unique niche that you’ve kind of carved out. And I think it fits really, really well where you’re at. And for some people, who obviously have never gone through your puppy application, probably.
But for the listeners, on your application, a lot of the questions are open-ended, designed to see, I think, how they perceive the puppy stages. Like I remember you have something about biting.
Like “Puppies bite a lot. They’re very mouthy for a long time. Are you comfortable managing this? Is this going to be a problem?”
I think you have like a, how will you manage this? And it ends up becoming this open-ended question. So then at this point, they can either say, “well, I’ll just deal with it.”
Or they’ll say, “oh, this is normal. We understand.” “Or we plan on working with this.”
And I think you probably get quite a variety of answers. But I think what you’re seeing is that people, one, have thought about it. Now they need to explain what they were thinking about.
And it works. So it’s not like the standard, do you have a fenced-in yard? It’s not just that.
It’s much more questions to get them thinking, which I think helps you vet if their head’s in the right space for one of your dogs. Because you have really high quality stuff, but also a unique program with your natural rearing. It requires a more responsible owner.
Andrea Jones | 47:55
Yeah. It does take a little more work, sometimes with the natural rearing.
Like, we don’t do aversive training. And I know everyone has their opinion about that. But as a holistic breeder, I guess it would be expected that we don’t do aversive training.
But to do non-aversive training, sometimes it does take longer to get what you’re looking for. So we are looking for certainly those who are committed to just the ups and downs of having a puppy.
Our return rate is very low. And part of that is through the application process. Like, we want to see, okay, are you committed to the hard part? So a lot of our questions are, hey, puppies do this.
Here’s some examples. How are you going to handle this? Do you understand the difference between this and this?
And that’s really our first line of defense. Is just reading their answers. Because sometimes I can tell they’re really not prepared to get a puppy.
Some of these people maybe are better suited right now to get a goldfish. Because puppies are like toddlers and newborns in one. They’re very needy, but they’re mobile.
Julie Swan | 49:24
That’s a very good way to explain that. I imagine too, with all your years of experience, as you’re reading through these answers, you get a really good read on if these people are coachable. Because I find with my buyers, I can tell right away, are you going to be the kind of people that you may not understand it.
That’s fine. But I can explain it. You’ll get it.
Andrea Jones | 49:47
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 49:47
Yeah. And then there are those people that I’m like, you’re like a box of rocks.
I’m not going to be able to explain this and have you do anything with it. And so you can feel like, I either need to give you a really easy dog or maybe not get a dog. Yeah.
Andrea Jones | 50:03
Yeah. If we can really tell that they’re not prepared to get a puppy.
Some people are just not really in that place in their life that they could give to a puppy and get the benefits. I can tell the puppy’s probably just going to be an additional stressor on them. And maybe in a week, I’m going to get a call saying, “hey, you’ve got to take the puppy back.
I was not prepared.” So really, the way I look at it, is we’re doing them a favor by gently letting them know, “I think maybe in the future, a puppy might be something that you could consider. But right now, I think maybe you’re not in the season of life where a puppy is going to be a good decision.”
And because a puppy is not a necessity, it’s a nice to have, but they’re a lot of work. So I don’t think everyone necessarily needs a dog.
Julie Swan | 51:13
Yeah, I think that’s true. Or they don’t need a puppy, they can get an older dog. That’s okay, too.
Andrea Jones | 51:20
Yeah. Because not everyone is equipped to handle a puppy. I’ve been through that a couple times, where they were certain they were, and then I get a call a couple days later that they’re not sleeping because the puppy’s not sleeping, the puppy’s crying, or the puppy keeps biting them and their kids are getting holes in their clothes.
And so some of the questions on the application, there’s a reason why we added them. Because it’s things that we’ve dealt with many times with families, and it’s like, let’s just straight away say, “hey, here’s part of having a puppy, is this something that you can deal with?” Because then it gets them thinking, oh, puppies sometimes have, excited tinkles is what we call it, but I have really expensive wool rugs.
Maybe that’s something I don’t necessarily need a little puppy, maybe an older dog who’s fully house trained and is over that excitement urination is a better choice. So a lot of the questions are just to get them thinking, too.
Julie Swan | 52:24
Yeah, I think it’s good. I think it works pretty well. So I definitely like it in your situation for sure.
All right. So for the very controversial part of our conversation, I remember the first time we talked, and you’re like, “yeah, we actually don’t vaccinate before they go home.” And I was like, you what?
And I was very confused. But I was like, I need to learn more. And so this is something that you switched to like 15 years ago.
This is not new.
Andrea Jones | 52:53
It wasn’t an overnight thing. It was actually over the period of years, because when you believe in vaccines, especially for dogs, a lot of us maybe we didn’t get the COVID vaccine. And maybe we delayed vaccines with our kids or spread them out or whatever, but we’re still traditionally vaccinating our puppies. That was where I was.
And it took me a good few years of things happening repeatedly, for me to finally say, okay, let’s explore different avenues, because we know disease is real. I know Parvo will take entire litters off of us. And depending on the area you are, you have different diseases.
So I’m definitely not denying that. But vaccines, I think a lot of times we take them without question, or give them without question, without really understanding, okay, the vaccines are probably going to prevent this disease, but there’s also side effects. So that was kind of where I was at.
I had to gauge the reward versus the risk, which is really how I approach everything with my program. Anytime I give anything to my dogs, I try to think, okay, I know there’s risk, but does the benefit outweigh that? So for us personally, we were seeing a lot of autoimmune illness in some of our dogs, allergies, sometimes things more serious, and with our puppies having reactions.
I think the last time I vaccinated a puppy with our normal, eight-week vaccine. And she, within a couple hours, started having a pretty severe seizure. We didn’t know if she was going to pull through, but she did, but she continued to have seizures until she passed away early, at about two-years old.
So then I went down the rabbit hole of the side effects, things that happen. Sometimes we see immediate side effects. Sometimes we see them down the road, and we don’t connect it with the vaccine, because maybe it’s years later.
Like us as humans, for instance, asbestos, right? We could be exposed to that, but maybe we’re not seeing any cancer for decades down the road. But we now know that asbestos causes cancer, but initially maybe they were trying to figure out what is causing this, because it was so many years later.
So that’s what we were seeing in our dogs. Sometimes we saw immediate issues, but generally it was down the road.
Julie Swan | 55:50
Sure. When you would run into that with a puppy buyer, were you starting to track how they had maintained their dog, how many vaccines they’d gotten, what ages, the food they were on? Is that the kind of things you were asking?
Andrea Jones | 56:04
Yeah. When we have a family reach out, and they have a particular health issue with the puppy, I will say the vast majority of the time, it is a puppy who they switched over immediately to kibble, and they started vaccinating fully. It varies from vets, but typically they start before eight-weeks, or with us, they get the puppy at eight-weeks or later.
Then they’re starting immediately every two to three weeks, they’re doing another series. Those are the dogs that a few years down the road, we’re getting calls or emails from the owner saying, “hey, we’re dealing with this. The vet said, it’s genetic.
So let the breeder know because her dogs probably have it and other puppies.” And I’m like, “oh, not really.” I see it from mainly the pet parents who have switched off of whatever we’ve been doing, they’ve gone the other way.
That’s when I tend to see it. I feel like allergies is a real big one. A lot of people say, “oh, doodles have allergies.
They’re just known for allergies.” Not really. I mean, allergies are common, but they’re not really normal.
So our dogs shouldn’t have chronic allergies or chronic ear infections. We need to look at what’s the root cause instead of saying, hey, that’s just normal. Doodles just have a lot of things going on with them.
Julie Swan | 57:43
Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. So you’re collecting all this data.
So you try it. And I think what scared me was, because I’ve been through Parvo. I’ve lost entire litters and I’ve worked with that.
I know it’s in my backyard. I used to, before I was using the Neopar, I used to not sleep at night the last two weeks, basically worried, did I do everything preventatively, but you’ve been able to avoid this. We know you’re doing the raw food, and I think that’s unparalleled, right?
That is obviously the best we can offer. And you have this low stress environment, which really sets the puppies up for success. And then your adult dogs, have you been selecting to work with a natural immunity?
Have you done anything in that realm?
Andrea Jones | 58:37
Yeah, we’re using in our program, the parent dogs who’ve not shown any things that we’re seeing in a lot of other dogs. So if I had a dog, for instance, that had chronic allergies or ear infections, that’s not a dog we would breed. Because we do extensive genetic testing and extensive OFA testing. If they fail any of that, we won’t breed them. We had one dog, we had done everything.
And I did his eyes last, which is very cheap to do because I was sure that he was clear. And so I did all the other testing, and even did a semen evaluation. I mean, he was ready to go.
And then I made an appointment just to get his eyes done, just the formality, and he failed. So he was washed before he was ever used. If a dog has a litter with more than a couple things wrong.
Like if we have a litter where maybe one or two of the puppies have an underbite, and someone has a hernia, and someone has a grade one heart murmur, those things alone are okay. You see that pop up.
Julie Swan | 59:57
Like if you just have one of those?
Andrea Jones | 1:00:00
Yeah, if we’re seeing more than one thing in that litter. I don’t want a repeat of that, so that might be an example of where we’re going to wash the dog. With mixed breeds, because they’re not a rare breed, they’re not technically a breed, they’re a cross breed, we have the benefit of really diverse genetics.
If there’s a breed that’s very rare, and the breeders are trying to keep that breed going, there’s some things that maybe they have to accept because it’s such a small gene pool. When you’re doing mixed breeds, you don’t have that, you have the option of a lot of dogs from different gene pools. So there’s really no reason when you’re getting mixed breeds, to keep a dog who’s producing puppies that maybe have these little issues pop up.
Now if we have a litter, and one puppy has a very slight underbite, or one puppy has a hernia because mom was a little aggressive cleaning her, taking off the umbilical cord, those are normal. So we wouldn’t wash a dog. But if we’re seeing more than one thing in the same litter, that’s not something we want to take a chance on.
The next litter might be okay, it might not be. Oh, and temperament too. If the dog is anxious, or fear aggressive, anything like that, that would be another reason to not use a dog.
So we really want the best, healthiest genes in our breeding program.
Julie Swan | 1:01:40
Makes sense. So you’re pulling these really strong dogs. You’re looking at, even as puppies, they were good, of course, then you do all your health testing, and they’ve got to pass all that.
So they’ve never really had issues, they’ve got all the health testing passed, and then on top of it you’re also watching for the temperament, which is more calm, low reactivity, confidence, which would be ideal to pass on genetically. So that makes sense. And then you’ve said, you stop vaccinating even your breeding dogs, even your guardian breeding dogs, and you really haven’t run into anything.
Andrea Jones | 1:02:16
No, our dogs now, compared to 25 years ago when we started, night and day. So we still have a lot of vet bills because we’re doing reproductive things. So like health testing, OFAs get very expensive.
We just did PennHIP on a couple dogs, which is very expensive. But we’re not having vet bills because we have chronically sick dogs anymore. They’re overall extremely healthy.
I mean, there’s little things that pop up here and there, which is normal for any breeding program, but the number of dogs that we have now that need vet bills, or need a vet visit for something besides reproductive needs, is incredibly low compared to before when we had chronic issues.
Julie Swan | 1:03:05
Yeah, so you have seen an improvement in overall health and no real uptick in diseases or viruses that they would be catching, that otherwise vaccination would prevent in theory, right?
Andrea Jones | 1:03:18
Right. We’ve never had Parvo, knock on wood, we’ve never had Parvo. We had kennel cough once from a guardian dog who had just gotten groomed, and they were going on vacation.
They thought they were doing us a favor by getting her groomed and pretty before they dropped her off for us to watch. And a couple of days later, she started coughing. I said, oh no, because we knew she had just been at the groomers.
So we did deal with kennel cough, because it’s so contagious, and she had been playing with our dogs unknowingly before she had signs. But the thing is, they got over it really quickly. It was within a few days and they were good.
It was a rough few days, because everybody was hacking, and a couple of my little dogs sleep with me, and they were hacking all night. But they got over it very, very quickly. So that’s really the only disease I would say that we had that possibly could have been prevented.
Although with kennel cough, we know the vaccine only covers a handful of strains, when there’s many strains of it. So it may have prevented it, but maybe not. We just don’t know.
Julie Swan | 1:04:27
But either way, it wasn’t like it was a long-term problem, and they just got over it pretty quickly.
Andrea Jones | 1:04:32
They got over it, yeah, and then they will be immune to whatever strain they had. It’s kind of like your kids get a cold. Kids are going to get sick occasionally, but it’s minor illness.
So for us, this was more an annoyance because of the hacking, but the dogs were mainly unbothered and it passed very quickly.
Julie Swan | 1:04:55
Yeah, which is incredible, but it’s also a testament to their immune system functioning so well, because for many people, it’s a two-week thing usually, right? Ten days to two weeks?
Andrea Jones | 1:05:05
My mother’s dog, who was vaccinated for kennel cough, caught it, she takes them to the dog park frequently, and so he’s had it like two or three times, obviously different strains. And it seemed like it was at least ten days, because I remember she was really complaining about it. No one was getting sleep in the house.
So I don’t know what is standard. But it was three, maybe four days, and we were pretty much done with it. It was much quicker than I expected it to go over.
Julie Swan | 1:05:44
Yeah, that makes sense. So, obviously your buyers, because of your approach to everything, and because the relationship you cultivate with them, they’re going let you know if they have problems and you’re not seeing them. And so what you’re doing is working.
We just really can’t deny that. So whether it’s a combination of your bloodlines and how you’re raising them, the stress-free environment, I mean, everything you’re doing, I think it’s creating this beautiful, I don’t know, I don’t even know what to call it, but it really works. What if your buyers want to vaccinate, how do you work with that?
Do you have any recommendations for them?
Andrea Jones | 1:06:27
Yeah, so like in your situation, you’ve had parvo on the property. So you know that’s really high risk for your puppies. So I’m not completely anti-vax.
I just think it’s very situational, and I understand now better the long-term side effects. But I know that there are some times when it makes sense. Even though there might be the risk with that vaccine, the risk of that disease is greater.
So it makes sense to vaccinate, which sounds like what’s going on for you. If we have buyers where they’re in an area where, let’s say they said our neighbor’s dogs had parvo, that would make me really nervous. That might be an example of having to weigh the risk.
That might be a situation where it would maybe benefit the dog. Because not all diseases are in all areas of the country. For parvo, I think it’s mostly everywhere.
Maybe not like in the desert, I don’t know. But for us, we’ve never had it on the property, and we have pretty good biosecurity. So even when I have Amazon drivers, for instance, I have a sign in my driveway that says, leave package here at the bottom of my steps, so they’re not walking up on the property, because they’ve been walking in people’s yards all day.
I don’t know what they picked up on their shoes, and then they would spread. So we’re really careful about who is coming onto the property. Not that we can prevent it totally.
We’re just trying to mitigate it as best we can. Because I know, again, that parvo is a risk. I know it’s real.
I know it can hit your entire litter. For us, thankfully, it hasn’t been an issue. And it may someday, that someone could possibly bring on the property one day.
Julie Swan | 1:08:30
But I don’t think that you are just hoping your dogs are never exposed. Puppies, yes, I understand it from the puppy perspective, their immune systems are immature. But your adult dogs, your breeding dogs, they’re not vaccinated, but you’re not worried where you take them.
I mean, you don’t just keep them at your house, right?
Andrea Jones | 1:08:52
No, so my personal dogs who are adults, they can go wherever I go if it’s pet friendly. And our guardian dogs, they don’t live in a bubble at all. They live as normal dogs do.
We’re really careful about our particular property, because, as you know, if it’s on your property, good luck getting rid of it. With us, it’s important that adult dogs are able to be normal dogs, and are exposed to it. So we assume they’re going to have immunities gained naturally for any diseases in the area.
Like if there’s an area where there’s a lot of raccoons, a high raccoon population, your dogs might develop an immunity to distemper naturally, just by going in that area. So we do think it’s important for dogs to gain that immunity. There’s just more than one way to do it.
You don’t have to necessarily vaccinate to gain immunity. There’s a lot of dogs who get titer tested who’ve not been vaccinated, but through controlled exposure have developed those immunities as well. So that’s kind of what we do.
I do think it’s very important for your adult breeding dogs to live as pets most of the year. And our guardians take them on walks, all over the neighborhood, they take them for walks. A lot of them take them camping with them, or they have vacation houses.
So they’re going in a lot of different areas, being fully exposed to different things that they’ll gain immunity to. Now one thing we do, if we have a new litter, because our guardian dogs, like the kennel cough, for instance, like that one situation that happened, we now limit how many guardian dogs we will babysit if we have a brand new litter. Mom obviously is going to be there, but if one of our other guardians say, “hey, we’re going out of town this weekend, can you keep so-and-so?”
And I’ll let them know I can’t because they always have a backup person who can keep them. They’ll ask us first. We want them, of course, to stay out of kennels, but they’ll have like, maybe their in-laws or whoever who can keep the dog.
So we did change that policy once the guardian dog brought in kennel cough, just because we don’t want to deal with it with entire litters. Adult dogs is one thing, but entire litters, that’s a lot of work.
Julie Swan | 1:11:30
Yeah, that makes sense. So ultimately, what you’re theorizing about why it’s working, is that not only do we have a strong immune system, healthy dog, and then you’re getting exposure through life, but not like dumped on them, right? Like not five diseases at once, and a vaccine at eight-weeks old.
It’s, we’re going to let you live your life. We’re going to get you exposed, sort of like throwing your kids out into school, they’re just going to get exposed and deal with it, and piece by piece, build that immune system. And I think that’s essentially the approach you’re taking with your breeding dogs.
Is that right?
Andrea Jones | 1:12:13
That’s exactly right. The whole purpose of controlled exposure, is we’re not going to take an eight-week-old puppy and throw them in a dog park. That’s too much, too soon.
You do it once their immune system is a little stronger. A lot of professionals will recommend like waiting until maybe 12-weeks before you really start bringing them out into the world to work on the exposure. But you bring them out in increments, and then you increase the time, and you increase the number of places that they’re going.
So for me, I’m not a fan of dog parks, period, even if there was no disease. But we know there is a lot in a very concentrated area. So if someone does want to go to a dog park, I would say wait until that puppy is pretty mature, because that’s so much, that’s such an assault.
But walking around the neighborhood, for instance, there’s other dogs, maybe there’s been raccoons in the yard, they’re getting it slowly, and they’re building up that natural immunity. There’s risk to either. There’s risk to vaccines, and there’s risk to doing the natural immunity, you just have to weigh what is that risk for your puppy or your program.
Julie Swan | 1:13:32
Exactly. And if we track what we see a lot of times in humans is that the vaccine stimulates the immune system in a very aggressive way.
Andrea Jones | 1:13:42
Yeah, it goes into overdrive.
Julie Swan | 1:13:44
Yeah. And sometimes that never settles down. And that’s when we start to see the autoimmune diseases.
And I would imagine that’s probably why you would see more allergies in some some lines after the vaccination and other susceptibilities. It reminds me, going back, you had brought up is it Dr. Robert Schultz, who has a delayed perspective on vaccines? Can you just take us through that?
Andrea Jones | 1:14:11
I think his name is Ronald. Yeah, it’s Ronald Schultz.
He did a pretty intense study. He’s a veterinary immunologist, so he’s going to have more knowledge as a specialist for the immune system versus like your general vet. So he found through his study, waiting later, so instead of six-, seven-, eight-weeks, you wait until later, and you do single antigen.
So you’re not doing like a five-in-one or eight-in-one, it just depends on which vet. And then you titer test to see if they have immunity before you add another one. And he’s really just recommending doing the core vaccines.
There are some vaccines, that maybe the risk of them will typically always be a little bit higher than the benefits, like kennel cough, because kennel cough, again, it’s kind of like a cold in dogs. It’s not going to kill them. And the number of variants is far greater than what the vaccine has.
So that’s an example of, that’s maybe not a necessary vaccine. Or like lepto, we see a lot side effects from the lepto vaccine. But a lot of dogs don’t live in an area where they’re really going to be exposed to lepto.
So again, that’s where there’s just so many variables. Like is lepto in your area, or distemper, or whatever else, you have to decide the risk of the disease before you vaccinate.
Julie Swan | 1:16:05
And so you would encourage everybody looking at their area, their probability for infection, based on activities, location and everything, and the dog’s immune system, and customize the vaccination schedule to what makes sense if you’re going to vaccinate. That makes sense. Like my dog’s, definitely Parvo, right? It’s just too much in Arizona.
But we don’t really have too much other stuff. One thing you had told me that I was blown away reading the article, and we’ll put the articles for Dr. Ronald Schultz and this one in the show notes if you guys want to see. But you were telling me that there are some dogs that have become aggressive after the rabies vaccine.
Andrea Jones | 1:16:47
Yeah, I had originally heard of it. So I will say, because I don’t want to fearmonger unnecessarily, I have not personally seen it in my dogs. But I also stopped doing rabies several years ago, because most states do have a statewide rabies law. We’re in a state that doesn’t, they leave it up to each county, our county does not have any sort of mandate or law for rabies.
So I’m okay, legally not to vaccinate them. And their risk for rabies is incredibly low compared to the side effects of the vaccine. So we choose not to.
But a local family, she was the one who brought it to my attention, she hired a trainer, who is not a holistic trainer in any way. She wasn’t anti-vax or anything. But she was talking to the trainer about the rabies vaccine.
And the trainer had said that she actually saw aggressive tendencies in dogs who she had been working with, okay, these are dogs she’d been working with, and she started seeing some aggression come out after their rabies vaccine. And that’s when I started looking into it. And so it’s completely anecdotal.
There’s no, that I have found actual studies that back it up. But sometimes anecdotal is true as well. So if, for instance, we see a person starts to have a reaction every time he has peanuts, you don’t need a study to necessarily tell you that, you know, he’s got a peanut allergy.
Not that that’s necessarily comparable. But just because there’s not a study for something, doesn’t mean it’s true or not true. It just means no one has sponsored a study for that particular thing.
But there has been, just from families, a lot of reports that they did see aggression happen after the rabies vaccine.
Julie Swan | 1:18:58
Not your dogs, but just anecdotally.
Andrea Jones | 1:19:01
Anecdotally, yeah. I had stopped vaccinating my dogs for rabies when I stopped vaccinating in general. So I don’t have a very big sample size, and I don’t think it is probably super common, because I think we would hear more about it.
We would probably ourselves be seeing it. And rabies vaccines, in most states, are the law. So that’s really up to each family, but it’s just something to think about, if you live in a state where you don’t have to vaccinate for rabies.
Julie Swan | 1:19:37
Yeah, it was interesting. I think like what we do in Arizona, where you have to get that first one, and then you have to get the next one within a year. And then that one becomes good for three years.
But then if you miss your three-year window, then the next one’s only good for one year. It doesn’t make any sense because rabies hasn’t really mutated in decades. It copies itself almost perfectly every single time.
So it doesn’t make sense. The dog will carry immunity always. I just wish, like we know they’re good.
Can we just be done? That would be the best.
Andrea Jones | 1:20:16
Have you heard of, I know his name and of course, because I’m trying to think of who it is, I can’t. He is a vet who, I don’t know if he’s still doing it, but he was traveling and testifying before Congress, trying to get the states who had state rabies laws changed. So he was a vet, and he was saying the law doesn’t align with science.
Why are we vaccinating dogs for rabies every year, or every three years, when sometimes it’s the life of the dog? We can test that. We can see, are they still showing immunity?
That’s what he’s wanting to do, he wants the laws to align with science, which unfortunately is often not the case. I’m so thankful I live in a county where we are not required to do the rabies vaccines, because unfortunately they’re just requiring it way, way too frequently.
Julie Swan | 1:21:28
Yeah. And what I was reading, when I was reading the dogs that they referenced in situations where they had completely changed their temperament almost overnight with the rabies vaccine. They tended to be dogs that you do see in more aggressive lines of work.
So it looked like they were like German Shepherds and Pitbulls. Not that they’re aggressive dogs by nature, but I notice my dogs, when they get anxiety, they crumble, they’re just like, “aaaaah,” and then they’re pingy. They run around like idiots. But I noticed my cattle dog, when he gets really stressed out, he will bite. Like he’s trying to set a boundary and wants to bite.
Andrea Jones | 1:22:14
He’s a bitey breed, yeah.
Julie Swan | 1:22:15
And so I would think if the dog has the predisposition, like my cattle dog, to bite, take control, let you know, and set a boundary. I would imagine those breeds that have that temperament, which is just their temperament. It’s not anything wrong with them, but it seems like they may have a higher susceptibility in those rabies complications, I guess.
Andrea Jones | 1:22:38
Yeah. I mean, if they’re predisposed to being a bitey breed, which we know herding dogs, that’s kind of who they are. Maybe the vaccine, the side effects are enough to push them into it.
It’s kind of like where we had discussed previously, environment and genetics, and sometimes it’s not either or, but it’s both. There’s kind of that susceptibility, and then something in the environment will push them towards that when they otherwise wouldn’t have expressed whatever that is.
Julie Swan | 1:23:12
Sure. Which is like epigenetics, which they’re only really beginning to study in humans. There’s hardly been any studies in epigenetics with dogs.
And if you guys aren’t familiar with epigenetics, it’s essentially, you can have a gene, but it can have multiple ways that gene will manifest in your life and in your DNA. Even to the tune of which eye color you have can be changed with epigenetics. And so if you’re in a different environment, and it changes the way your gene is manifesting, you can have an entirely different result.
And I think toxins, potentially some of the stuff that’s in vaccines or your environment, can definitely change how those genetics read.
Andrea Jones | 1:23:49
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It’s just so complex, and there’s so much that we’re just starting to learn with that.
But I absolutely believe that there’s such a connection between environmental and genes. So for us, that’s another reason why we started holistically breeding, because some of these things that were happening, that we were seeing within the dog, maybe it was partially related to genetics, but we never would have seen it, but then when we started over-vaccinating, and feeding kind of garbage food, that triggered it.
Julie Swan | 1:24:31
It makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. Well, Andrea, thank you so much for sharing this with us.
It was really new when I first started talking to you, but it’s been very interesting and very fascinating. And I’ve been enjoying everything I’m learning as I’ve worked with you, and learn more about how you do things. I think you’re on to something.
Andrea Jones | 1:24:52
Thank you.
Julie Swan | 1:24:53
Yeah, definitely. Well, your evidence is in your dogs. But before we go, can you share any advice you’d have for new breeders getting into breeding?
Andrea Jones | 1:25:03
Yeah, I will share my mistakes. So if you’re getting into breeding, I would say, have funds set aside, like in an escrow type account, because Murphy’s Law will happen. Things will go wrong, maybe an unexpected c-section.
So I would say, make sure that, to be honest, you can afford to get into breeding, because you’re really not going to make money necessarily immediately. There’s just so much to invest into. I would say also, do through genetic testing, absolutely.
And hopefully you’re doing OFAs as well. We can’t eliminate risk, but we can minimize it as much as we can control it. And also, I would say, have a good attorney for your contracts.
That is something I wish I would have done way back, because it really sets up the expectations, and what you’re going to cover, immediately. There’s no gray area. It’s very straightforward.
So those would be probably the main three things.
Julie Swan | 1:26:25
That’s good stuff coming from 25 years of experience. Thank you so much.
And where can people find you?
Andrea Jones | 1:26:34
So, I’m all over the place. Obviously, my website, maplehilldoodles.com. I’m on all the socials.
Not TikTok, but I’m on everything else. Pinterest, YouTube. Yep, I’m very easy to find.
Julie Swan | 1:26:51
Perfect. All right. We’ll put that in the show notes too.
Thank you so much, Andrea.
Andrea Jones | 1:26:55
Okay. Thank you.
