The 12 Days of Breeders is a series of interviews conducted with members of the Dog Breeder Society who are doing innovative, creative, and inspiring things in their dog breeding business. In each of these interviews we cover challenges each breeder has encountered, and how they’ve overcome those challenges to find success in their breeding program. Join me for all twelve of these interviews for inspiration, and countless actionable tips you can use to overcome (or avoid) challenges in your own dog breeding program! You can check out all of the interviews in this series here.
Andrea Gardner of Desert Sky Poodles
Today we welcome Andrea Gardner of Desert Sky Poodles in Utah, who brings a truly unique perspective to the world of dog breeding, shaped by her background in agricultural education. Andrea explains how the principles of genetic selection and program management she learned in Ag Ed apply directly to her Poodle program, leading to a thoughtful, data-driven approach. She views her role as not just a breeder, but as a teacher, emphasizing the crucial importance of thoroughly educating buyers so that every Desert Sky puppy can achieve its full potential. Join us to learn how embracing an educational philosophy can revolutionize your breeding selection, buyer relationships, and overall view of your program.
Transcript
Julie Swan | 0:00
Welcome to the Honest Dog Breeder Podcast with me, your host, Julie Swan, where each week we dive in to discuss all things dog breeding so you can build a breeding business you love, producing dogs that fulfill their owners’ dreams. I believe you can have an honest dog breeding program that also pays the bills. So throw those pods in your ears while you’re cleaning kennels.
I’d love to join you. Welcome back to 12 Days of Breeders. You guys are in for a treat today.
Today we have Andrea Gardner of Desert Sky Poodles in southern Utah. Andrea, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today.
Andrea Gardner | 0:35
Yes, thanks for having me.
Julie Swan | 0:37
It’s so good. Oh, you have a fun story, so can’t wait to share it. So first off, how did you get into breeding?
Andrea Gardner | 0:45
My story really starts when I was young, as a kid. I grew up in northern Utah on a family dairy farm and we had dogs. I’ve always been a dog lover.
My first dog was actually a toy Poodle, a little white one. I think I was seven when I got her. But we bred her and sold the puppies. For us growing up and obviously 35 years ago, it was a lot different to raise dogs, sell puppies, but for us it was kind of just a part of our culture.
For me thinking back, it’s great memories as a kid of me and my siblings raising puppies. The money we earned from them was always something that we used to do something fun as a family. We went on a trip, made a memory.
So we bred our toy Poodle and then later, more into my teenage years, we had a couple of Shih Tzus that we bred. So that was something that I had for a few years. And growing into high school, I did an internship when I was a junior at a veterinary clinic, and ended up getting a part-time job there and started working at a vet clinic.
I was there my last two years of high school, plus all four years through college, working as a vet assistant and receptionist, and I loved that job. It was a cool job to be introduced to a lot of different breeds, a lot of different stages of life, medical situations. Definitely a job that I learned a ton and really loved.
Standard Poodles were not a very popular breed at that time. This is before doodles started becoming popular, which, as much as some Poodle breeders don’t love, doodles are what brought popularity to the standard Poodle particularly. So it was before then, but every standard Poodle that came in, they just caught my eye.
I just loved them. I loved that they didn’t shed, that they could be kept clean, just like the small dogs I grew up with. But added to that, I loved that they had an added dimension of their athleticism and particularly their trainability, their ability to teach them to do tricks, to potty train them, to integrate them into life.
There was just something special about them that always just caught my eye. So obviously, at that time in college, was not the right time to do any more breeding. The last litter we did with my Shih Tzu growing up was actually what paid for a semester of college that helped get me through.
I was able to work really hard and put myself through college with lots of jobs. But that litter, that last litter that we had in that phase of my life, was what paid for my tuition, one of those last semesters. But I promised myself that the next dog I got when I was graduated from college and stable and able to get a dog would be a Standard Poodle, and it was.
That was Gemma. She’s actually the dog, I used in artist to make my logo. And that’s my Gemma.
So she’s the one that kind of started it all. She’s a black Standard Poodle. And I always just planned that I would breed one day.
I knew I wouldn’t breed her because I was single at the time. I was a teacher. I went to school to be an agricultural education teacher.
So I was an FFA advisor. I taught all sorts of classes. So I had her at that time.
But like I said, I never intended to breed her, because I just knew it wasn’t the right time of life for that. But she was the star of my classroom sometimes. I taught a vet assisting class.
I taught animal science. I taught an agriculture biology class. And at times I’d get to bring her in and we’d do different things with her.
But my students all knew who she was. And she was a fun part of the class.
Julie Swan | 4:36
Kind of like the classroom mascot.
Andrea Gardner | 4:39
Yes, yes. I dressed her up for Halloween one year and took her in, shaved her, made her look like a bumblebee, shaved her hair into stripes and had some fun with her. But anyway, so I had her in this time.
And really, like I said, even though I wasn’t breeding at this time, I feel like I’ve always had that in my heart. Because when I was teaching these classes, a lot of the topics that I now apply now that I am breeding again, would come up in class. Like I said, I taught biology, animal science.
So for example, we talked about genetics, I’d teach them how to do Punnett squares, and to calculate possibilities of different things. And I’d give them examples. And I use livestock examples, as well as a lot of dog and pet examples, because those graspable, the kids really understood them.
Julie Swan | 5:23
Yeah, there’s something you’re familiar with. I know, I was taught Punnett squares with the peas, and the purple peas and the white flowers and whatever. But before we go forward, can you, I know for a lot of people, ag is maybe not as understandable.
Can you just give us a little bit of an understanding of what your degree was, and then what you were actually teaching in the schools?
Andrea Gardner | 5:43
Sure, sure. Yep. So agriculture, I should have used the full word instead of the shortened one, but just agriculture.
So anything to do with the production of our food, fiber, fuel in some cases, is the big terminology of agriculture.
Julie Swan | 5:59
So everything from cornfields to raising cows.
Andrea Gardner | 6:03
Right. So my degree is a secondary education license to teach, as well as I studied animal science, and I have a minor in animal science as well as plant science. And then ag systems technology, which is more to do with, I actually taught a welding class.
So just kind of basic welding, plumbing, those kind of things. So that’s kind of the three pillars that my bachelor’s degree was in, is teaching those things. Sometimes people joke about ag teachers being a jack-of-all-trades, that we just have to know a little bit of everything.
And it is true. I ran a greenhouse. I really grew to love plants, and animals have always been a part of my life.
Like I said, it was a mixture of both companion animals and livestock. I think I mentioned I grew up on a dairy farm. I grew up riding horses.
Now this phase of my life, we’re still a part of that. My husband manages a calf ranch and a dairy farm. My family still has a dairy farm.
We also raise show sheep. So we still have our hands in a lot of different areas. But that’s what I did as far as in the classroom.
So it’s in the category of a career and technical education class.
Julie Swan | 7:16
That’s nice. I know not all schools offer it, but more of the rural communities have it. And I think it’s such a useful course of information.
I mean, you use it all the time.
Andrea Gardner | 7:25
Right.
Julie Swan | 7:26
Yeah.
Andrea Gardner | 7:26
That’s something that people don’t always recognize as being something that impacts their life.
In fact, I don’t teach now, but I do work in agricultural literacy. So just understanding of where our food comes from, how it’s produced, being able to make literate decisions about our food, and even politics impact that, like just being able to understand the ins and outs of those kinds of things is important.
Julie Swan | 7:52
Yeah. Could you give an example of something that you’ve recently been working on?
Andrea Gardner | 7:56
So some of my projects have had a lot lately to do with climate change, topics like our livestock and the environment. So sustainability of our environment as far as our natural resources and what it takes to produce our food. For example, stock has a different environmental impact for animal source foods than plant source foods.
But yet, you have to have the ability to look at that strategically in ways that it’s not just saying, “oh, let’s just get rid of animal source foods and do plant source” because that has impacts as well. A lot of what I do is really helping teachers. So I work for the National Center for Ag Literacy.
So I work with teachers and provide professional learning and curriculum for them to help them provide that. You can’t teach certain topics without understanding something about food. Even in science and biology, teachers talk about technologies that are used in biology, like genetically modified varieties of plants.
You can’t understand that without understanding the farm, and what it takes to produce different crops, and why would someone turn to a genetically modified variety, how is it produced, etc. So it’s really a matter of being literate in it, and being able to look into it and say, “okay, well, this is one perspective and that’s another.” So a lot of it is tied into socio-scientific issues, which just means there’s a science of it, but there’s also a social science of acceptance of different technology, stuff like that.
Julie Swan | 9:31
That makes sense. I mean, we do our own version of genetically modified when we’re selecting who’s breeding, right? So you can breed for a more resilient to disease line of dogs or better hips or better color.
I mean, you have all these options. It’s different, but then there’s also the more, shooting DNA into things, right? Isn’t that like a different way to do genetically modified, which is just a whole different animal, right?
Andrea Gardner | 9:58
If you’re taking DNA from one species and moving it to another, that’s genetically modified versus more of the selective breeding.
Julie Swan | 10:06
Right. But both would be genetically modified, right?
Andrea Gardner | 10:09
Technically, yes. But there’s a lot of discussion among scientists about that because it creates confusion. Does that make sense?
Julie Swan | 10:17
Oh, absolutely. Nobody’s mad about having a healthier strain of pumpkins, but we do get upset when we’re throwing other things in there. I get it.
Andrea Gardner | 10:29
So anyway, that’s what I do. Like I said, when I was in the classroom, I loved teaching Punnett squares. I loved giving examples, different color combinations you can find in animals.
I use it today now, obviously with my dogs and knowing what kind of colors that are possible with different crosses. I really talked a lot about selective breeding, and selective breeding is just really fascinating to me. When you look across the board at all livestock, all animals, but obviously, especially dogs, that’s what we’re here to talk about.
But it’s just interesting to really look at what humans have done through the years. Selective breeding changed everything, agriculture changed everything for society. As far as our ability to not just be hunters and gatherers, way back when. Selecting plants that would help us thrive and live, and selecting animals that had specific characteristics.
I used to show a PBS documentary that’s called Dogs That Changed The World. Have you ever heard of that?
Julie Swan | 11:32
No, I haven’t.
Andrea Gardner | 11:32
You have to watch it.
Julie Swan | 11:34
Okay.
Andrea Gardner | 11:34
It’s a little bit older now, but Dog That Changed The World, there’s two parts of it, but it just talked about how dogs became domesticated and different theories about how they were selected. And the second part of that is called Dogs by Design, that goes even deeper into purebred breeds, the canine species has over 300 recognizable breeds and how did those come to pass. And my students love this because they can picture, I’d point out to them, look at a Chihuahua and look at a Great Dane.
How did we get two completely different dogs all from the same ancestor. How did that happen and how many years did it take? And do you think mutations were part of it? So then we’d kind of pull in those concepts, because students have to recognize that all of these genes have to come from somewhere.
And even the creation of breeds, we talk about just breeds in general, breeds of livestock, breeds of dogs, breeds of cats, like how were they created? Well, they’re created by taking gene pools from different places and pulling them together. And then we’d talk about the concept of breeding true. That we have this breed standard and this set, and I’d actually use doodles as an example, because they still are, but were popular at that point, and they understood it, to say, “okay, well, somewhere someone had this idea that if we take this breed and this breed, that maybe we can create something that has what we’re looking for.” So then we talk about the implications of those puppies as F1s, that, okay, we might’ve gotten this characteristic, but we might’ve also gotten another one, and just really go through. And like I said, it’s just really fascinating to look at that from the science classroom perspective.
Julie Swan | 13:22
That was such a great exercise you were telling me about you did with your students. So in this exercise of breeding true, can you tell us what breeding true is, just to define it for anyone who’s not familiar? And then how did you do that exercise with your students?
Andrea Gardner | 13:37
So I would have them pick two different breeds of dog that they thought had characteristics that they wanted. So I would say pick two different breeds that, they need to be compatible, and then they would create their breed standard. So to say, I’m creating this new breed, I’m going to take these two breeds, I’m going to cross them together.
And then those puppies, they’d be an F1 cross, I’d have them list the characteristics. What size are they when they’re full grown? What does their coat look like?
What’s their temperament? What does their body structure look like? If you’re a brachiocephalic breed with a smashed face or one that’s not, so I just give all sorts of examples.
They’d create their breed standard, and then describe their hypothetical litter, and say, “okay, these ones I’m going to keep and I’m going to breed. And these ones I’m not.”
Julie Swan | 14:31
So they would look at the genetics and say, okay, all these dogs are going to have this color combination, or this coat texture, or this structure, or we might have 50% will look like this, 50% will look like this based on the genes.
Andrea Gardner | 14:49
And then they’d go through and then they’d pick which, these were all hypothetical, but they’d pick the ones they were going to keep. And then how were they going to breed? Okay, well, now you have this small population.
How are you going to keep your genetics varied so that you’re in safe ranges of inbreeding. Bring something else in, and they would create a whole tree, but it really put to work a lot of things that we do today even, as far as how do you identify those traits. And as far as defining breeding true, breeding true just means that in a specific genetic pool, are you guaranteed to get the outcome that you’re looking for. So have you defined your genetics and filtered them down. Picture a funnel, you start from multiple breeds and you’re funneling down, can you cross two of the same type of dog and have a hundred percent, or very close, to the offspring with the desired outcome?
Julie Swan | 15:47
Kind of like all Rottweilers being black and tan that kind of idea. Okay.
Andrea Gardner | 15:53
Yeah. That’s something that’s been really put to work a little bit for me. So my first Poodle, Gemma that I told you about, she was a big standard Poodle, and standard Poodles really got big for a while.
In the United States, a Poodle is one breed with three varieties. There’s the toy, the miniature, and the standard. The standard Poodle is anything 16 inches and above in height at the shoulder, that’s how AKC defines it.
But that’s a really big size range. We’re talking anything from 30 to 70 pounds. And that’s a big difference.
Now, of course, in the show world, those are going to stay a little bit tighter in size. But in other countries, there’s a Poodle called the Moyen Poodle or the Klein Poodle, particularly in Germany and France. So they actually have four varieties in those countries.
The AKC, it does not recognize the Moyen Poodle in the United States. It’s just standard. So anything 16 inches and above would be a standard regardless of the size.
But the Moyen size is something people want, which we go back to selective breeding. We choose the characteristics that we want, that are beneficial to us, that fit our needs and our wants. So people started breeding Poodles selecting for that size.
The challenge with the Moyen size, beyond the point that it’s more just a consumer definition, like it’s a people definition, not one outlined by a breed standard, is that it’s difficult to breed true. Because usually what they would do is take a standard Poodle and breed it to a miniature in hopes of getting something in the middle. And oftentimes they will, but if you take that standard miniature, they call it an intervariety cross, you might cross it to another intervariety, but they have direct parents that are still 50 pounds.
And so you could get a puppy that’s still going to be 50 pounds. So that’s an example of not breeding true, because there hasn’t been enough time in the progression of the genetics to weed out the genes for the larger dog.
Julie Swan | 18:03
And based on some genetics, it’s easier to accomplish certain things rather than others, right?
Andrea Gardner | 18:09
Right.
Julie Swan | 18:11
What goes into some of that?
Is it just because there’s multiple genes at play, or dominancy, or all of that?
Andrea Gardner | 18:18
I would say that there’s just multiple genes. I mean, if you think of people, how many people do you know who have parents that are taller than them or shorter than them? They have a whole family of kids all with the same parents, and one’s tall and one’s short. It happens all the time, but it’s because those genes are still there, but there’s influences that come from a lot of directions.
I definitely think that genetic testing has improved dog breeding, and that we can do a lot better with that tool, but sometimes I think we forget to still be humble to the reality that we don’t know more than we do know. There’s still a lot out there in the canine genome that still we don’t know.
Julie Swan | 19:03
Oh, absolutely. Oh, like the white, the white is so misunderstood. Yeah.
Oh, I love it. Oh, such a good exercise. I love this.
It’s really important for anybody working with multi-gen, to understand how to breed true. You can do a lot with that once you get it in the areas you want.
Andrea Gardner | 19:21
I think it takes a lot of skill to be a really good breeder. A lot of skill, and a lot of time, and a lot of generations of having to weed out.
Julie Swan | 19:39
Yeah, it’s hard to do. It takes a lot of dogs and it’s time, it’s generations. You’ve got to turn them over pretty quick.
So absolutely. Okay. So then how did you transition then from having this background?
You’ve always wanted to breed, but timing wasn’t right. How did you get into breeding now?
Andrea Gardner | 19:59
So the time finally came that it was right. I taught for four years and then I got married, and that’s when I moved to Southern Utah and there wasn’t teaching opportunities here. And that’s when I moved more into the curriculum development.
I work remotely for Utah State University is what I do now. That’s a part-time job. And so once my family was here and my kids were all born, it just was the right time.
My oldest daughter was old enough that she was wanting her dog. Gemma was getting older. I knew that she didn’t have much time left, so that’s when we got our first breeding female.
Julie Swan | 20:33
Yeah.
Andrea Gardner | 20:33
It brought a lot of life back to Gemma for her last two years to have a puppy to play with, and that was a really positive thing. But we got Ivy in 2021, and then in 2023 was our first litter. I had found the Honest Dog Breeder podcast, one of my best friends told me about it, and I started listening and I was gung-ho.
And so a dream that I’d always had, a way that I always wanted to raise my kids, with similar great memories that I had. 2023 was not a great year.
Julie Swan | 21:03
It was hard. It was a hard year.
Andrea Gardner | 21:06
And it was rough. The first litter was really difficult.
I was definitely trying to take in everything I was learning from the Honest Dog Breeder Society and everything, but it was just a really hard time. And I wasn’t quite tuned in. I started a website, but there was just a lot missing as far as my reach and finding buyers.
So that first litter was very difficult to get rid of, to sell. I shouldn’t say get rid of, but very difficult to sell. And it was devastating.
Like I said, it wasn’t just something that I was like, “I want to earn money” it was a dream that I’d always had, a way I wanted to raise my kids, something that I really wanted to do. And I was like, “man, I just don’t know if this is the right thing or even if it’s possible.” I just felt at that time, there was a lot of breeders still, the COVID.
Julie Swan | 21:56
Oh, that was the low of the low. It was really hard.
Andrea Gardner | 22:01
Got through that first litter. By that time I had got my second female and she was coming up and I was like, I am not breeding her. I knew I needed a different game plan, but just wasn’t sure if I had it in me to execute.
So I didn’t intend to breed her. But one of my kids let my male out, and she ended up getting bred. And which was ironic because they didn’t even tie.
Like I was right there. I grabbed him. I thought anyway. But a month later I was grooming her and was like, “oh great. She is pregnant.” But that was a blessing in disguise.
What kind of turned things around for was partially time, but also I ended up coming upon the opportunity to do Google ads to help drive people to my website. And that litter a year later in 2024, I was able to sell. And it was just a huge blessing and a, “okay, I can do this.”
And ever since then, it’s just been the ability to just add one thing to another, and just be patient with slow progress, just being consistent. I’m just now getting to the point that I’m starting to get deposits ahead of time. I’m finding the kind of puppy buyers that really value the same things I do. I feel like dog breeding is something that you definitely, I like to look at things less as right and wrong because there’s more of just, it depends. That comes a lot from my teaching experience and my work experience in dealing with issues that have multiple sides. Oftentimes we as humans are looking for an absolute right and an absolute wrong as far as what’s the best genetics, and what’s the best way to test hips, and should we dock tails and take dew claws off, there’s all these things.
And we’re looking for one end of the road, full stop answer. And there just isn’t one.
Julie Swan | 24:09
Yeah.
Andrea Gardner | 24:10
And I think that’s part of showing your education in something, is being able to say, “well, that depends.” Now with my students, I always felt like I achieved something if when I asked them a question that they could respond and say, “well, that depends on what you want.” “That depends on what you’re looking for.”
And so I think of that a lot as a breeder. But like I said, the last two years have been successful, and I’ve been able to find those buyers that value what I’m doing. And it’s been a lot of fun. I’ve been able to learn a lot about temperament testing, been able to kind of fine tune my genetics.
I’ve got my first keeper female that I’ll be able to breed next year that I’m really excited about. I’m excited to see, here’s the two dogs that I started with, and here’s one that’s even better. Success is showing growth from one generation to another.
Julie Swan | 25:05
Closer to your ideal.
Andrea Gardner | 25:06
Right. And it’s just getting to the point that, what’s the word, you did a podcast on it recently, being a breed expert.
Julie Swan | 25:17
Oh yeah.
Andrea Gardner | 25:18
I feel like I came into breeding as obviously someone very passionate about standard Poodles.
I love them myself for lots of reasons, but I feel like I’ve really pushed myself to understand them better. So rather than just being a biased breeder of, “oh, this is the best breed ever, you should definitely have one.”
To really understand some of their pros and cons, I’ve taken classes with a local trainer that I really love. Really two of them actually, one specializes in agility, which is what our kids really love to do. Another part of our program that’s kind of significant is the 4-H program. There’s a dog 4-H program. And 4-H if you’re not familiar is a youth program.
It’s usually administered through the land grant university in each state. It’s well known for livestock, showing pigs or goats or sheep at the fair, but there’s also a dog program. So the dog 4-H program is for youth to be able to learn how to train their dogs.
It’s designed as an introduction to a lot of different types of dog sports. So we do agility as well as rally, obedience and showmanship. It’s just a really good introduction to dogs, being a responsible dog owner, basics on training.
My kids love agility. We’ve done a few NADAC trials. Poodles are very athletic dogs, very easy to train, so they’re a really good fit for that.
But it’s something as a parent that I’ve really seen a lot of neat things come from my kids as they’ve learned how to train a dog, and as they’ve failed. There’s just a lot of life lessons as far as resilience, patience, trying again if it doesn’t work this way. The humility to find the right person that might have the training strategy that will work. And even just the people skills of you’re mad at the dog right now because it didn’t X, Y, or Z, but is that going to convince them to do X, Y, or Z?
No, it’s not. And just a lot of confidence. I feel like we live in a world that somehow we need to, and this applies to adults as well as kids, but we live in a world that kids need confidence. Kids need to believe in themselves that they can do something.
And I’ve just seen that really come alive with my kids and their dogs, because it’s just been exciting for them. And for us, the Standard Poodle has been a great breed that’s been very trainable, very adaptable, very capable of doing all of those things. It’s interesting watching, my oldest daughter has a lot more drive and competitiveness than my second daughter.
And it’s interesting watching their dogs, which are my two breeding females right now, because they match my daughter’s. The older one that has the higher drive has the dog with the higher drive that is more gung-ho. And the younger one, when we go to an agility match with her, and she’s younger, but she’ll go through the tunnels and just kind of trot along.
And they’re just happy to be together, but they fit each other. Like I said, I’ve just had a lot of experiences. I feel like those have built my ability as a breeder to be able to help match other people to their puppies.
As I’ve learned more about temperament testing and applied it in my program, that’s helped match people better to their puppies, because there is a lot of variability in Poodles. Some of them are really high drive, that you really need to engage or they will have destructive behavior, and others are more laid back. And so it’s important to find that right fit.
Julie Swan | 29:07
Do you think with your daughters, do you think your daughter’s personalities and temperaments shaped the dog, or do you think you just aligned the dogs right? Or how did that come about?
Andrea Gardner | 29:19
I’ve thought about that before. I do think that they match each other, and I have seen that with puppies as I’ve homed them. I do keep in close contact with my puppy buyers as much as I can, and as they need support.
And I do think that dogs have an ability to match, especially when they’re puppies, that they do mold and adapt, they’ve still got a baseline, but they do mold and adapt. So that’s a tricky one.
Julie Swan | 29:50
No, I think it’s true. But I think you’ve hit it on the head, which is like, if I sell a dog who’s a year old or a retired mom, her kind of herself. She’ll have a little bit of sway, but she’s going to be who she is. But I feel like a puppy is much more like plastic, if you will, you can mold it however you want.
And I do think that’s one of the selling points for buying a puppy, right? Because you get to make it what you want. Just like cultures in families, you notice, bad term, but high performing families, like most of the kids in the family are going to be that high performer.
It’s just the pace of the family. So it makes sense. But it is an interesting study to watch.
Andrea Gardner | 30:35
The first time I took both of them to a trial. Because the younger one wasn’t quite ready, and so I went alone with my older daughter, the first couple. And then when I took both of them, it was just really fascinating.
And I was like, this is really interesting.
Julie Swan | 30:48
Right?
Andrea Gardner | 30:49
There’s a lot of factors, age is one of them.
But yeah, it’s definitely, I feel like if I were to give advice to a breeder, as far as like, how do you become a breed expert. You really have to step outside of yourself. I really pushed myself to say, okay, what are the hard parts, I’m all up in lights that I love this breed.
But what are the harder parts? What would be easier in my life if I had a different breed?
Julie Swan | 31:18
That’s a good way to look at is, I like that.
Andrea Gardner | 31:20
And that’s really been helpful. Like I said, I try to apply it, I’ve pushed myself really hard. And I’ve enjoyed it too.
I really enjoy taking training classes, because it’s really helped me to see other breeds and other perspectives. I miss when I worked at the vet, I really enjoyed seeing multiple breeds, and how they acted and reacted in different situations, because I learned a lot about them. It’s still in my mind, but it’s 20 years ago now.
So it’s not quite as right on the tip of my memory. And dogs change. So there’s probably some different things.
But something that helped me a ton, in learning to do temperament testing, I do the Volhard test, which is probably the most common generic test there is, I’ve added a few things and kind of have some other things that I watch for in my puppies. But something that helps me a ton is to do a temperament test on another breed. That was totally eye opening.
Julie Swan | 32:25
What were some of the things that you learned or noticed?
Andrea Gardner | 32:27
Something I’ve seen in my puppies, almost all of them, like nine out of 10 easily will retrieve. They retrieve. They usually have a high social draw, like they follow the person easily. They usually almost always chase the rag, which is like their prey drive, we have chickens, and I definitely know my Poodles have prey drive. That’s definitely a reality with the breed.
But it was interesting to go test these puppies, because they weren’t interested. So in a Volhard test, the idea is that you do it in a new place that the puppy’s never been, and with a person the puppy’s never met. So new place, new person. The breeder, the person familiar to the puppy puts the puppy in the testing area, and then you watch the puppy to see what they do.
Are they interested in the person and the tester, even though they’re a stranger? Do they run up to them? Do they run away? Are they scared? Is their tail wagging? You’re looking at all these things to say, is this puppy comfortable in this new place?
And my puppies typically always run to the tester, they might look around for a minute, but they’ll usually run to the tester. And these puppies had nothing, they did not want to go to the tester at all. They didn’t whine or cry, but they just stood there.
Not a single one of them retrieved, like they were just there. It really made me realize, okay. With a Poodle, the AKC definition, I think is really good.
They say they’re wickedly smart. And I like that, because it really is important to realize that Poodles brains are always working. And if you’re not engaging them, and if they’re not doing something, they’re probably going to be destructing something.
You know what I mean? You have to use those smarts in a positive way. This other breed that I was working with, it would probably be a lot less maintenance as far as what they needed.
And that was really eye opening to me as far as talking to puppy families about what do you picture doing with your future puppy one day? Are you one that really just likes a snuggle buddy on the couch? Are you one that wants to go for walks and hikes?
Do you want to take them paddle boarding? You know, what do you want? And that’s been really helpful to me, to really see that and recognize how that fits.
And I do still feel like a Poodle is super adaptable. Like I said, especially when you get them as puppies, they really do adapt to your life. You don’t have to take them for a three mile walk every day.
There’s other ways that you can engage them. But doing those tests, and that’s something as a goal to even keep growing and keep learning, is I would love to do temperament tests on more breeds, because it gives me insight on what my breed specializes in. You know, as far as reactivity, even there’s a part of the test that they open an umbrella to see how the dog responds to surprising things, and how they recover, stuff like that. And it is different.
And so, like I said, that was a huge professional learning moment for me that I just really valued, that I was like, “okay, this is a great way to really know my breed on another level.”
Julie Swan | 35:49
Yeah. I like that. I think it also helps you see some of the things, because we sometimes get tunnel vision, right?
We see our own breed and like you said, you know yours and what they’re going to do. My Rat Terriers, if I were to throw something for them to retrieve, they would look at you be like, “I want that. But why did you throw it? You had it.”
And then they’ll go get it. And they’re like, “oh, I’m not going to give it to you. You don’t know what you’re doing with it.”
And then they’ll go take it somewhere and chew it. As opposed to my GSPs, they’re just born to retrieve, like, “oh, yeah, we fetch, we do this. I’ll bring it back and throw it again.”
And it’s just so funny how different breeds are. But what it does help you do is not only recognize the differences. But like you were saying earlier, sometimes we are like, oh, we just love this. Isn’t this fun.
And for you, “Oh, Poodles are so smart, isn’t this fun.”
And other people are like, “oh, my gosh, they ate this, then they ate this, then they ate.” I remember one breeder telling me her Poodle opened her oven and pulled the food out. And I’m like, my German Shorthairs are not smart enough to do that.
Andrea Gardner | 36:50
My stud can open our sliding glass door and lift windows.
Julie Swan | 36:54
“I would like that, please. I’ll go get it.” I just feel like Poodles are like, “I’m gonna go do that. You can’t stop me.” And I think you can love and embrace that. But you’re absolutely right to point out that this will drive some people crazy or they’re not equipped to handle it.
Andrea Gardner | 37:08
Right. I definitely learned the stud I just mentioned. He’s a much higher drive dog than my others are. And I feel blessed that happened, because my puppies aren’t as high drive as him.
I do have one puppy owner that has done a fantastic job raising her puppy, but she texted me once and was like, “Max didn’t want to wait for me to let him out. So he just opened the door himself,” because she had a lever handle. She was just laughing about it.
And I said, “OK, the next thing to do is teach him how to shut the door behind him.” And the cool thing is that’s not out of reach. She could definitely teach that.
Poodles would be a great service dog for those behaviors, or picking things up, and those kind of things for anybody that might need it. But, yeah, I do go for a little lower drive than he has.
Julie Swan | 38:05
I understand that, too. Yeah, I’ve played a little with that with my German Shorthairs. Oh, well, you had brought up earlier, and I thought it was so helpful.
You said in the beginning, you didn’t really have the ideal puppy buyer dialed in, but now that you have, you’re getting these much better buyers. Can you tell us a little bit about the process of one, how you became aware they weren’t maybe a great fit, and then how you made the changes you needed to make to get to what you have now?
Andrea Gardner | 38:34
Right. I actually think I looked at it a little bit differently, more in the dogs. So it’s almost like a backwards, coming in from the back door as far as the ideal puppy buyer. I really looked at my dogs and took notes on my first litters and what their strengths were and what did people struggle with.
That’s the question that I ask in my one year puppy survey, what was hardest about raising this puppy? What was the most challenging? And I feel like I’ve been able to draw some lines, because in every litter I’ve got an ideal for different situations.
Like I’ve got my more laid back puppies and then I’ve got my higher drive puppies. So I feel like my ideal puppy buyer, knowing my genetics and my breed, I have to have a little broader ideal puppy buyer. Does that make sense?
Julie Swan | 39:29
You’re getting a little bit of outcross I would imagine, with your stud’s drive, and your mom’s how they are.
So you’re getting a little bit of a range. I think that’s very normal. I have hunting families that hunt four times a year and hunting families that hunt every weekend.
It’s very different dog. Absolutely.
Andrea Gardner | 39:49
Sure. So I feel like I was just able to look at the dogs, look at what they were producing, really just fine tune. Like I said, I work in curriculum development, and I always joke with development that it’s always developing.
And I agree. I feel like it’s the same, if you want to always be getting better and always be learning, you don’t just arrive, you’re still learning and you’re still figuring it out.
And you’re still watching for signs of what’s a way I can fine tune this. And how can I make this drive a little bit different. A lot of people do have backyard chickens and that’s something Poodles, in fact, just the other day on a Poodle page, I saw there was a chicken eater that was like, we have to get rid of them.
They had to rehome the dog because they couldn’t manage the chickens, and it is a real thing. And so like I said, I just feel like it’s been a process with each litter, that I’ve learned more about my own dogs and their specific drives, what would be a genetic component of them as well as the breed in general. And so as I’m looking to add my next breeding animals, I can look more specifically at those kinds of things just to set people up for success.
One of the things I loved about the dog training class that just stuck with me, and why I hadn’t thought about it before then, I don’t know, but she always said, “set your dog up for it to succeed. Your goal is to praise them and tell them yes and give them a treat. Your goal isn’t to trick them.
Your goal isn’t to have them fail your goal is for them to fail to succeed. So only stretch them. If it’s a sit, stay, you want them to stay for 10 seconds, don’t go to 20 if they’ve never gone to 10. Set them up to succeed.
I think the same thing applies with breeding puppies and knowing your genetic potential, whether it comes to size or their prey drive or their sociability, things like that. How can we set people up for success, recognize those signs to say, you’ll be successful with this dog.
Julie Swan | 41:55
Right. Oh, I love that. Yeah.
It makes sense. And so you’re doing that with your people too.
Andrea Gardner | 42:00
Right. Right. It makes it sound a little bit, but I do think it’s good.
I do think it works, because I do think dogs are adaptable. I don’t think temperament testing and really looking into temperament is a diagnosis for life.
Julie Swan | 42:19
No, I agree with you.
Andrea Gardner | 42:21
In fact, when I describe it to my puppy buyers and help them understand, so my puppies aren’t selected until they’re seven weeks.
I stick to the hard truth with the Volhard testing. And it is challenging sometimes, because it’s hard sometimes to get people to wait for that seven weeks, to put a deposit down on a puppy that they don’t know which one it is, especially with my Poodles where they’re multicolored, because they don’t know which colors are going to be available. That is a little bit challenging, but my goal is to educate them well enough that they realize that it doesn’t matter.
Does that makes sense? I feel like a good breeder is also a good educator, and an educator at heart.
But as I explain to them, here’s all the things that I can give you. I can give you so many more tools to match you to the best puppy if you wait until seven weeks.
Going back to size, I keep size charts.
In fact, I’m geeky enough that even up to a whole year old, I’m asking for their weights. And I’ve got a chart just like they have at the pediatrician’s office, that I’ve been able to identify, like I said, where I have a variability in size. From 30 to 50 pounds is really where I’m specializing, but that’s still a big window. I can see which puppies are going to stay towards the 30 pounds and which ones are going to push to the 50.
And so I can tell them at seven-weeks, I’ve already got the start of their growth curve. I know where they are. If I matched you at two-weeks old, I couldn’t give you that.
And so I just explained to them, and I have a page on my website that I feel like is helpful. I’ve gotten a lot of good feedback from people who are like, “oh yeah, I get it now.”
So again, as a breeder, if I’m a good educator and help them understand, here’s the tools I can give you and here’s why it’s to your benefit. I like the way you word it, that you’re buying into my program, not a specific puppy yet.
Julie Swan | 44:19
Yeah. Well, I feel like, doesn’t it make your life easier too when they’re on board, and you have all these colors, and they’re like, “well, okay, I’ll take that one instead.” Like it doesn’t matter if it’s a better fit, they’re excited about that match, which I love.
Andrea Gardner | 44:31
Something that I’ve enjoyed, I’ve done the last two litters. I’m always trying to make it a little bit better, is I made a template in Canva for the videos. So I video the temperament test.
And it’ll say, here’s what your puppy did when it was placed in a new environment with a new person. And then show that clip of the video. And here’s what your puppy did when it was exposed to an umbrella, you know, something startling happening.
And I feel like there’s a lot of power and choice for puppy buyers. I don’t want them to think that I’m going to tell them, this is your puppy. End of story, no arguing.
I still want them to choose, but I want to empower them by saying, here’s all the tools I can give you so that you can then choose the puppy. And I feel like the video of these hypothetical situations that make up a temperament test is valuable to them. And I’ve had people place a deposit at four-weeks and be like, “oh, but I really want this one.”
And, they’ll point to one puppy and then the time will come to pick. And even though that puppy is still available when their pick comes around, they’re like, “nope, actually it’s this one.” And I always tell people to trust their gut when it comes to selection.
If I give you all these tools, the tools are what gives you the ability to be drawn to the dog that’s yours. And I always tell them that.
And I’ve seen it over and over, whether it’s the first pick, or towards the end pick, it doesn’t matter because it’s a matter of finding your puppy, not the first pick puppy or the second pick puppy.
Julie Swan | 46:08
Yeah. And people never remember the other puppies, about a week after they have their dog. And I have had an occasion when I’m telling the buyers “there’s this one” and it’s the prettier one or something.
And it has a little bit higher energy, it’s a little bit more drivey. It’s a crazy a bit more, “or you have this one” who’s almost as cute.
And has all the temperament you want. When people have gone against that recommendation and pick the one that’s a little bit crazier. Invariably a few months later, they say you were probably right. I probably should have got the other one.
We’re working with it, but it’s work.
Andrea Gardner | 46:49
And I think that choice gives them the oomph they need to put in that extra effort. So that’s, that’s one reason I really value that. I look at temperament testing as a tool. What are we looking at today?
Recognizing it’s five to 10 minutes in time. What do we see and valuing it. Also I tell them as well that it’s kind of a prescription, that we can cater a plan for you when you get this puppy. If we have a puppy that’s a little sensitive to sounds or meeting new people or things like that, I can help them understand this puppy needs extra of this and here’s how you do it. And here’s how you do it well.
I feel like that helps people really feel confident and be like, oh, okay. Because I’m going into it prepared.
Julie Swan | 47:38
Yeah, I love it. I think it’s so good. And it sounds like your buyers are very receptive to this education.
In fact, they’re probably seeking it out.
Andrea Gardner | 47:49
Some of them are, not all of them.
Julie Swan | 47:50
Yeah. And so have you done anything on your website or in your marketing that sort of groomed them to be in that space?
Andrea Gardner | 47:58
No. And I’ve actually wondered about this. In fact, in thinking about this podcast, when was I introduced to temperament testing?
And I really am having a hard time remembering, don’t remember when I first heard about it. I am very much an observer. I’m part of a lot of breed Facebook groups where I do a lot more observing and reading than I do participating, because I feel like you can learn a lot. And I think I just started seeing temperament testing like, oh, what’s this?
And started researching and just saw this is a good idea, and this is helpful for not only me, but other people. But as far as puppy buyers coming to me, I do sell some service potential, dogs intended to be trained for service. And that’s not negotiable.
They’ve got to find a breeder that does temperament testing at seven-weeks. But other people find me, and I have to start from the beginning. And that’s why my website, like I said, I’ve really worked hard on that particular page to help them understand this is what I’m giving you.
And this is why. I feel like there’s success when I get someone coming to me and saying, “I want a brown phantom puppy with an abstract mark that that’s.” They have this picture, and then to be able to back them up and say, “let me teach you a little bit and let me show you what I can do.”
That’s even better than just knowing this color and this pattern that you’re looking for. It’s not uncommon for people to text me back and be like, “oh, wow, you’re right. That is more important.”
I do feel like it’s helpful and people are receptive. I mean, people are receptive to learning something new.
Julie Swan | 49:47
Yeah. I think sometimes too, when you have an “easy sale,” “I want that puppy sell it to me now.”
And you say, “Hey, have you considered that maybe this would be a better fit for you?” It really does catch some, because in theory, if we were just selling to make money and didn’t care about the puppies, we’d be like, “yeah, cool, buy it,” but we don’t.
And so the little action of saying, “Hey, have you considered,” reels them in, builds trust and rapport with you. And then it does set them up for success. Yeah.
I love it.
Andrea Gardner | 50:21
It’s good to find ways to teach them. As a teacher, it’s called pedagogy, it’s the process of how do you help someone understand a concept. I feel like in teaching a puppy buyer, I’ve seen success in being able, if there’s two puppies that they’re looking at, and there’s one that is a better temperament fit than the other, like I said, invariably it’s one with a brighter color package, maybe, or something that’s going to attract them, some eye candy. I’ve at times taken those two puppies in a room, so that’s just those two puppies, not all of them together, but put them in a situation that they can see the difference between the two puppies.
So for example, I had someone wanting a puppy that they were more laid back, would be better fit for a lower drive puppy. And I had a lower drive puppy. And then I had a bright, shiny higher drive puppy that I knew they were attracted to its color more, but I took them both in a room and I sat down on the Zoom call with them.
And I just took out a ball and started just rolling it softly, like playing. And one puppy sat by my leg and put its head on my leg and let me pet it while the other puppy played ball. And I just pointed out to them, here’s the example, this ball is available to both of these puppies, but this puppy is more concerned about where I am and wants to be with me.
Is this the lifestyle you want, or do you want this, you know, kind of setting up those scenarios. I don’t feel like most people are ignorant and like, “Oh, I just want that one. And it doesn’t matter.”
I think it really is our responsibility as breeders to educate them. So the more we can come up with very tangible scenarios, like I said, that was an easy one, that one worked really well, but similar things to point out. This is a difference in this puppy versus this puppy.
Now, is that puppy still going to play? Of course, it’s going to play, the one that was sitting on my leg. It’s not like it’s going to be a bump on a log its whole life, which I have run into that problem.
In fact, my first litter, I remember talking to a puppy buyer and I was so excited because I needed to sell these puppies. And she seemed like such a good fit. And I was describing this puppy as one of the calmer, more person centered.
And she’s like, I don’t want that one. I want, and she even said wild. She’s like, I want a wild dog.
And I was like, “Oh, well I messed up there.” Maybe not messed up, because maybe it was a better match, but the way she was picturing the lifestyle with her dog was one that was always a crazy puppy. She’s like, “I want a crazy puppy.”
Like that was fun to her.
Julie Swan | 53:08
Yep. There are some people like that out there. It’s good.
It is interesting, isn’t it? And then I think it gets easier over time. As you go, you start to notice it, but I love your idea of putting them in the same room and showing people.
I like to use an example. Like I had a dog that was a really pretty color, and they wanted a different color than what they had had before. And so when I explained that this dog, you won’t be able to conveniently take it anywhere.
It’s just a little bit too much of a home body. It’s introverted, a little bit more reactive, unfortunately. And then they were like, “Oh, okay. Yeah, we don’t want that one.” And it just became really easy. And I think it’s like you said, what I see now watching it for so many years, is they have this idea that, “I want a dog that fills X place in my life” and they do some tests online or something like that.
And then those tests kick out and say, “Oh, you need this breed.” And then they forget all the other couple of hundred breeds in that test.
Because there are usually like 12 end results. And then at the end of that, they think this is what I need. But what they don’t understand at that point in time is that there’s differences within a litter.
There’s differences within a breed. So different breeders are going to have different kinds of puppies. And then within even the litter, we have a ton.
I think once you get them to say, “Oh, Hey, they’re actually different.” Even as siblings in this litter, then they seem to wake up. Something else I see in the same kind of idea, a lot of people think all breeders are puppy mills.
I don’t know why this still exists. It drives me crazy. But as they talk about it, they say, “okay, well, all breeders are puppy mills.”
I’m like, “well, where do you think guide dogs come from?” “We just pick them up at the shelter.” “Oh, okay.”
You know? And I think once you understand from what I see, the reason puppy mills even exist, I don’t think anybody got into that so that they could just throw dogs in cages that were disgusting. No, they got overwhelmed and made a series of poor decisions that didn’t fix it.
It’s just an interesting parallel, but anyway. Yeah. I don’t think anybody’s really getting into it for that reason. Anyway, sorry, tangent. Okay.
So getting back to, you have this new buyer you’ve been educating, do you do anything to prepare them? I mean, are you putting videos on YouTube or Instagram when you do the temperament sharing?
Andrea Gardner | 55:53
I just make them on Canva. Canva has a feature that you can do a public share, so make the video and then use the URL for the public share. And then I did put them on my website, this last litter.
So just the remaining puppies, after the deposit holders picked, I put the videos up and on my social media is like, “okay, go see the temperament testing videos.” And it is challenging because if you go into it completely cold, like I always say, “have you heard of temperament testing? Are you familiar with it?”
And the majority aren’t. Some of them are, but the majority aren’t. And so I’ll describe it to them briefly. I’ll have them read my website and then go watch the video. And I have adapted my video templates.
Like I said, so it stops and it says, “okay, in this part of the test, we’re doing this,” and then it shows that, “and this part of the test, we’re going to see if the puppy is going to follow us,” and then it shows that puppy. And so it’s more newbie friendly. So if somebody that’s not familiar with temperament testing, they’re like, oh, okay, these are 10 situations we’re going to put this puppy in to see how it responds.
And they do seem to ask good questions about it. Even the people who have never heard of it.
I feel like I’m getting enough education to them that it’s giving them some value.
Julie Swan | 57:20
Oh, good. Yeah.
Andrea Gardner | 57:21
And if anything else, it’s also just seeing the puppy in a real life situation, like what’s it going to do when a new person comes, is it going to follow you? Is it going to play tug with you? Is it going to retrieve a ball?
You know, what is it going to do?
Julie Swan | 57:39
That makes so much sense. And I think it does. It starts to make those differences very tangible in a way that I think when you just say, “oh, you want this one.” Or sometimes if you haven’t built the rapport with the buyer, and sometimes it happens not because you don’t have it, but because you just didn’t get an opportunity to talk with them.
They were so excited. Everything seemed right. But I find that’s where you get the opportunity to finally educate them, and they can finally see those differences. So I like that a lot.
Andrea Gardner | 58:10
The video format has worked out really well for me. There is scoring that goes with puppy aptitude testing.
Julie Swan | 58:16
Sure. Absolutely.
Andrea Gardner | 58:17
My experience with service dog trainers has varied.
I feel like they’re all over. They just have really specific things about what they’re looking for, which is very understandable. But I’ve learned that the score to me, the actual number score, is a lot less important to me than just the reaction. Because the scores, oftentimes puppies, like as you look down the scores and the descriptions, it’ll be like, “oh, well, like the puppy did this thing on a score three and this thing on a four,” which one do you circle?
And it’s okay to just circle them both, that it was somewhere there. But as you learn and grow and experience things, what I have adapted to a little bit more is like, I’m more interested in what the puppy did. Was the tail up, but they were nervous. Did they run behind the tester, we’re looking at what they did.
And I find that’s a little bit more tangible to a puppy buyer, as well as myself as a breeder. There’s always things in the temperament testing as I’m watching from afar that I’m like, it surprised me with that puppy. Because we’ve been around them, but I do think it’s important to put them in that situation with someone that doesn’t know them, but is savvy of dogs, obviously isn’t going to do something dumb, but it is eye opening.
And I have seen that there’s times that because they’re introduced to someone new, that I see something that I wouldn’t have seen if I just did it all myself.
Julie Swan | 59:48
Yeah, that makes so much sense. And the scoring, as you bring up, the scoring just helps you see differences, in my opinion. And in the end, you need it less. The more you do it, the less you need the scoring, because of what you’re pointing out.
Andrea Gardner | 1:00:08
There is value. I mean, they’d call that a quantitative thing, something that can be measured. It’s a number.
There is value in quantitative things. There is value in that numbering system versus more, the opposite would be qualitative of like observation and opinion. There’s definitely value in that.
But I’ve seen in working with service dog trainers that are helping someone select a puppy, they usually just have their own opinion anyway. So just let them do it. Give them the video, give them the tools, and recognize that.
Julie Swan | 1:00:40
It makes sense. That’s perfect. Okay.
So let’s rewind for a second. You were telling us that you had a little bit of a harder time selling that first litter, right? And of course everyone’s first litter, it’s hard.
Don’t pretend it’s super easy. It’s usually not without a lot of preparation. And we often don’t know what to prepare for.
So after that you made changes, and now we have all this other stuff. Can you kind of just walk through some of the changes you did to get us to where you are now, where it’s a lot easier?
Andrea Gardner | 1:01:14
Basically, I feel like looking back, the things that made those step-by-step improvements is just adding, the website was big, I had a website, my first litter, but it’s made a lot of improvements. I really learned a lot about SEO and understanding how to optimize for search engines, like adding the reviews from buyers, having a Google business listing. There’s just a lot of things, I love that all of this was very well outlined in the Dog Breeder Society, just step-by-step.
It’s good to look at it and realize you can only do, a little bit at a time, just take a step at a time. But know that if you’re ever in that situation, find one thing to improve each time. So work on your website.
How can you make it more readable? One of my bosses at work, that’s now retired, was very crazy and critical of websites. So when we were working on something, she’d come to a website and be like, that is so dumb, like you shouldn’t.
And something she always said to me, she’s like, because there’s times I’d be like, should we make a tutorial on that? Should we help teachers do this? And she always said to me, she said, “if there has to be a tutorial to operate your website, your website is bad,” like it has to just be easy.
Julie Swan | 1:02:31
More intuitive?
Andrea Gardner | 1:02:32
Yeah. Intuitive is the right word. Yes.
That was something I really tried to do, like “okay, if I’m a puppy buyer and I’m coming to this website, I need to know how much the puppies are.” What do I need to know?
And so I just tried to be really critical, put my boss’s brain in my head, her criticalness, and go through. And really work on the SEO, even little things like adding the meta descriptions for readers and different ADA requirements helps improve your websites on Google optimization and stuff like that. So just every little thing. Looking at my pictures, dog photography is really important as you’re trying to market dogs in both making them look good, but also helping people correctly identify if this dog is a fit in their lifestyle. Does that make sense?
Julie Swan | 1:03:27
So how did you do that?
Andrea Gardner | 1:03:30
I’ve had to really work, I’ve had to develop some grooming skills. I always have groomed my own dog, even when I had just one, but I really worked hard to learn better skills and just really make sure that my dogs are something that when people look at them, they’re like, “Oh wow, look at that dog.” You don’t have to be a Poodle lover, but that’s my goal when I go for a walk, is someone like, “Oh, that’s a good looking dog.”
And I think that of any purebred that is intentional, you should be able to look at it and be like, “wow, that is a good looking dog.” Those are the kinds of dogs we want to be breeding, obviously pairing with all the other things we’re looking at. There’s a Facebook group for dog photography that I found that has been helpful.
I joke a little bit that taking pictures is me and my daughter, we work hard at that. It’s hard to position and take the puppies and have them look good. But, like I said, in our lifestyle, as we go to 4-H, as we go to classes, I’ve spent the money on the professional photos just to make sure that what people are seeing is the lifestyle these dogs are. So improving my website. Improving the way that I portray my dogs, and that kind of ties into social media.
You know, what am I showing on Facebook and Instagram? How am I portraying them as how they fit in someone’s lifestyle? So I worked a lot on that.
Another thing that I’ve added recently that I’ve seen is a really good help is adding an email newsletter. I’ve tried to make my newsletter something that regardless of if you’re maybe a future puppy buyer, or even a past puppy buyer, there’s something there for you, like grooming tips, tools that I’ve found that are helpful, training tips, introducing them to a new trainer or a new book or a toy. Different enrichment toys are important with Poodles, I feel like, and fun.
People like enrichment. Stuff like that. So things like that, like I said, and you can find all of this in the Dog Breeder Society. I love that it’s like, okay, find something and focus on it and move to the next one.
Now focus on this, and just give yourself some space to grow and learn. And I’ve always hoped as far as appealing to puppy buyers, that they see that I’m improving, that I’m learning, that I’m becoming better each time, because I feel like that’s what brings value to an experienced breeder. I’ve thought about this recently as I’m coming to the end and retiring my first two females this year.
I thought about the reality of, if I was still doing this the way that I did when I was a kid, which is just breed your own dogs, and then you’re done. All of this I’ve learned would go to waste, it would just be over, it would end and then someone else would pick up, and they would have to do the learning process, and then they would end. And so I’ve just really realized the value of a program to be able to continue breeding, whether that’s through guardian homes or through rehoming your retired animals because you can’t have them all all the time.
But I’ve just seen the benefit that I can give more to these puppy buyers by taking everything I’ve learned over the last four years and applying it, it’s going to keep getting better.
Julie Swan | 1:07:02
It’s a cumulative advantage, absolutely. You get better and better every year and it makes it better for your buyers to have access to you.
Andrea Gardner | 1:07:11
Which is another point of education to puppy buyers, that they’ve heard the puppy mill phrases, they’ve heard these kind of things. And I do try to teach them about ethics. In fact, I have a social media post that I thought I did a good job on that is, do you know the vet, Dr. Pol?
Julie Swan | 1:07:31
Yeah.
Andrea Gardner | 1:07:33
So there’s an episode, my kids love that, when one of my little boys was little, I had two things that I could get him to do what I wanted, you can watch Dr. Pol and you can take a bath. I could get him to do anything.
We watched a lot of Dr. Pol one winter and there was one where someone brought in a puppy that was sick, they just barely got it from a breeder that was probably the definition of a puppy mill, too many puppies, sick puppies. And so she was rescuing it. And he was explaining to her that you actually are adding to the problem when you rescue this puppy, because you’re bringing money to this business that doesn’t have the same ethics that you want to support.
And so I use that Dr. Pol episode and his quote, helping educate puppy buyers on here’s some things you look for. And again, it’s not a black and white answer of what’s good and bad. It depends, what’s important to you, and that’s something I really value in our program, is that I want our dogs to be in the same pet lifestyle that their puppies are.
And that’s my future goal, is being able to have a dog and to raise it and train it, so that when it’s done having puppies, someone is like, “I want that dog,” because not everybody is really great at raising a puppy. There are excellent dog homes out there that aren’t excellent puppy homes, and it takes a lot more care to really make sure that there’s the right education going with placing those older dogs. But that’s a future goal that I have, that we can raise a puppy and train it to the point that when we need to rehome, a retired animal, that they would look at it like, “wow, this is a superstar. And I’m so blessed to take in this dog that’s already potty trained, that’s been living as a pet,” so that’s kind of my future goals. But like I said, that education point is just really important in helping those puppy buyers, like you have to be an educator to be a good breeder, I think.
Julie Swan | 1:09:42
I don’t disagree with you. I hate to be like, “well, you’re going to have to love this,” but you kind of do.
Andrea Gardner | 1:09:50
That’s cool, though. You’ve got to have something that drives you, because there’s a lot of puppy poop. And there’s a lot of hard stuff.
And there’s hard puppy buyers. And things are going to be difficult. But ultimately, and for me, that passion really comes from seeing that perfect placement, seeing that puppy grow, at a year-old, when they’re texting me saying, “I can’t imagine life without this dog.” And you look at what the steps it took to get to that point, and it’s no single step.
It’s everything added together. I recommend that they find a trainer to work with, I recommend that they do different things like steps along the way. And that started with my website.
So those tips of success for me as a breeder are the same tips of success that are going to translate for my puppy buyers, the website that they find and see trust in, that they recognize this is someone that knows what they’re talking about. This is someone I can approach. That’s another thing with breeders that blows my mind away. Sometimes when I was looking for my first dogs, I couldn’t believe how many breeders were just not very nice. Good grief.
You know what I mean? Just very critical. I had one breeder not even willing to sell me a dog because I had kids.
And I’m like, “yeah, I can handle it.” Like I said, I feel like every successful step as a breeder has the exact mirror of how we’re setting a puppy buyer up for the dog of their dreams, for the situation that they’re looking for. I think it all fits together.
Julie Swan | 1:11:37
Yeah, it makes so much sense. I love that. And I love how you’ve used your website as a place to not just share all this knowledge, but it boosts your authority.
It gives them answers. It’s such a beautiful, I don’t know synergy that’s happening.
Andrea Gardner | 1:11:54
And it pushes me to be better. Rather than just be comfortable with where I am and what I know to say. Like, right now, there’s some people that would really like to learn to groom their own dog.
So that’s my next, how can I create some tutorials and create some things that you can groom your own dog to save that money, because the challenge with the standard Poodle is in most places, it’s a little bit expensive to have your dog groomed. So here’s a tool and some education I can provide that can make that affordable for you.
Julie Swan | 1:12:22
Yeah, I think it’s perfect. All right. Well, Andrea, thanks so much for coming on the show.
It has been so good hearing your story. I just love that you were you do all the ag stuff. It just has such a cool crossover to breeding.
But before we go, could you share with us, if you had advice for new breeders just getting started, what would you tell them?
Andrea Gardner | 1:12:48
My piece of advice, which we’ve kind of built on this throughout the episode, is just take those small steps to keep learning and keep improving. Really focus on your website, but look at it from the heart of a teacher. Know that if you want to be a good breeder, you also need to be a good teacher.
Think about the teachers in your life that made an influence on you, and how they did it, and apply that to your dog breeding program so that you are able to educate puppy buyers. You’ll find better ways to do your website, your social media, everything will be influenced for the better if you approach that from the heart of a teacher and say, how can I teach people about my breed?
How can I teach them how to raise their puppy right, so that it becomes the dog they dream of? How can all of those things, if you twist that into my job is to be a teacher, you’ll find success and your puppy buyers will be successful.
Julie Swan | 1:13:45
That’s so good.
All right, where can people find you?
Andrea Gardner | 1:13:49
My website is DesertSkyPoodles.com. I’m also on Facebook and Instagram. They’re under Desert Sky Poodles.
Julie Swan | 1:13:58
Perfect, easy enough. All right, well, thanks so much.
Andrea Gardner | 1:14:01
Yeah, thanks for having me.
