The 12 Days of Breeders is a series of interviews conducted with members of the Dog Breeder Society who are doing innovative, creative, and inspiring things in their dog breeding business. In each of these interviews we cover challenges each breeder has encountered, and how they’ve overcome those challenges to find success in their breeding program. Join me for all twelve of these interviews for inspiration, and countless actionable tips you can use to overcome (or avoid) challenges in your own dog breeding program! You can check out all of the interviews in this series here.
Shannon Dooley and Howlelujah Miniature Schnauzers
Shannon comes to us from Perth, Australia! She shares her journey in breeding over the last few decades, how the passion was brewing, but sometimes had to wait. She shares how she imported dogs from all over the world and what breeding and show is like in Australia! You’ll love this enjoyable journey and how she made it all come together!
Learn more about Shannon and Howlelujah Miniature Schnauzers
Check out Shannon Dooley and her Miniature Schnauzers
Transcript
Julie Swan | 0:24
All right, you guys are in for a treat today. We have Shannon Dooley of Howleluyah Miniature Schnauzers. Thank you so much for joining us today.
You are coming from Perth, Australia. So this is fun. It’s like beautiful day for you, and getting into nighttime for me.
But this is great. This is great. So Shannon, tell us, where are you at right now?
You’re a mom. Tell us a little bit about who you are.
Shannon Dooley | 0:47
Okay. Well, yes, I’m a mom. I’ve got two daughters who are 12 and nine and we homeschool.
This is our, we’ve just gone into our sixth year of homeschooling. So we’ve, yeah, weathered a few bumps along the road with that. But I’ve had Miniature Schnauzers for, I think this is now my 32nd year we’ve just gone into.
So I love this breed wholeheartedly. I know them inside and out. And yeah, so we’re, we’re in Perth in Western Australia.
Allegedly the most isolated city in the world. We’re like 30 minutes from the city, 10 minutes from the beach, and in the suburbs at the moment. So yeah, we love it here.
Julie Swan | 1:32
Sounds so beautiful.
Shannon Dooley | 1:33
Just kicking into summer.
Julie Swan | 1:35
I know as I’m like freezing over here. It’s wonderful.
It just got below well, 70 in Fahrenheit here. So I’m dying. But anyway, so you got started and you were 17 when you got the bug.
Is that right?
Shannon Dooley | 1:49
Yeah. So we were living in Holland for a posting. My stepdad worked in oil and gas.
So I went and I finished high school, and went and lived over there, and my mom surprised us. So it was a Christmas present. And here we are.
This is our, this is our little girl Bunky. I’d never met the breed before. So I had no idea of the transformation that you get when you’ve got this black little puppy that gets fluffier and fluffier.
And you’re like, Oh my gosh, it’s a woolly mammoth. Drop it off at the grooming salon. And then this, we didn’t even recognize her.
This little dog was like, hi. And who is this dog? It’s very sweet.
That’s your dog. Beautiful little haircut. It’s just, I’m like, wow, how awesome is this breed?
They have their own haircut and she knew she looked good. She was styling like, Oh, but yes, just the most gorgeous personalities. You know, they love their people, and they love being part of the action.
Great size, no shedding and all of that sort of thing.
Julie Swan | 2:54
Tell us, about how big are they?
Shannon Dooley | 2:57
So the, the girls are usually about 12 to 13 inches up to the withers and the boys can be like 14.
So give or take, I mean, that’s what we’re aiming for in our breed. But obviously when you see some out in the wild, they’re a bit bigger if they’re, you know, backyard bred and that sort of thing. But yeah, that’s what we aim for because they should be miniature.
Julie Swan | 3:21
Right. There’s that. They’re like my Rat Terriers.
Shannon Dooley | 3:23
Like a baby.
Julie Swan | 3:24
Yeah. What are they, like six kilograms or so?
Shannon Dooley | 3:29
Okay. Yeah. So the girls are usually about six and the boys can get up to, depending on how solid they are bone wise, sort of eight and a half, nine.
Julie Swan | 3:37
Yeah. So they’re somewhere for us around like 12 to 18 pounds, which sounds about right. Yeah, that’s such a good size.
Shannon Dooley | 3:43
That’s totally manageable for families, you know, and adaptable is in the breed standard. So if you’re in an apartment, if you’re in a suburb, you’re on the land, you know, they kind of fit all the places. So.
Julie Swan | 3:56
Yeah. So this first little pup you got, was she a breeding dog or was she just a family pet that you guys just fell in love with?
Shannon Dooley | 4:03
So my mom, cause she was working in Holland. She’d asked around because she’d met standard Schnauzers and didn’t realize they came in miniature. So she ended up buying from a breeder in Holland who actually showed as well.
So that was a good thing because we kind of trained our eye to a good quality miniature. And yeah, she did buy her with full papers. So when we had to go back to Australia at the end of, I think it was like 14 months later, we imported her, which at the time was three months quarantine.
So they have to have their rabies shots and then a titer test. And then you go through the whole process, which my mom obviously did. And yeah, there was a little hiccup at the end.
She got retested and the titer was a false positive. So they made her do another month, and she was a puppy. And she was on her own.
So this was the sort of thing that you just like, no, this is not ideal, but we could visit her. We went and visited her once a week.
Julie Swan | 5:03
She actually had to be like in a facility.
Shannon Dooley | 5:06
Yes, it’s a government facility.
Julie Swan | 5:08
Wow. This is standard for all dogs coming into the country?
Shannon Dooley | 5:12
Absolutely. Yeah.
We can not avoid these hoops. It’s now 10 days. So yeah, there’s a certain criteria in terms of getting the microchip and a photograph and the identity.
So as long as they meet that criteria at the moment, they can do 10 days. If they don’t Australia changed their rules this year in January, they would have to do 30 days.
Julie Swan | 5:40
Yeah. So it’s still better than three months.
Shannon Dooley | 5:44
Yeah. Yeah. And then it was an extra month and then they said, oh, it was a mistake.
So I know my mom was not impressed.
Julie Swan | 5:53
All right. So you come back. And so your mom was like, okay, you’ve been exposed to the awesome show world.
You’ve seen these gorgeous dogs, right? Not just that they’re the mini Schnauzers, but they’re actually beautiful, quite well put together. So you get her back, and then how did that go?
Shannon Dooley | 6:10
So then my mom decided, well, we’ve brought this new line into Australia. Why don’t I give breeding a try? So she registered with, it was a canine association back then, and went through all of that protocol to set up her prefix, and that’s our kennel name over there.
So then she bought a couple of other mini Schnauzers, which was a genius plan. And after I think a year or two, we started breeding. So our first litter was actually a different bitch that we’d mated.
And I was there. I got to be the one to help deliver those seven shiny rats. And that was like the best thing ever.
I think I just enjoyed that. That’s where it like really sparked for me. I was like, this is awesome.
Like, I want to do this. And it was this wonderful transformation. Then we had all these puppies and they’re hilarious.
You know, they’ve got these cute little personalities and yeah, I just loved it. Mom bred for a little bit longer. And then I think she was finding it very difficult, that sort of trying to find the perfect home, and trusting that people were going to do the right thing.
I mean, this was the early nineties, so there was no way of checking up on social media and finding out, what about these people or, you know, even as far as doing questionnaires and things, which is kind of standard for us today, that sort of thing. And she was working as well. So it was, you know, she was juggling a lot and living rurally.
And so, and it was around that time that I moved to the UK when I was 21. So yeah, I think she didn’t have me sort of helping as well. So she was like, nah, this enough.
Julie Swan | 8:01
My help is gone, and this is a pain. Uh, and just for reference, was it mostly advertising in like newspapers?
Shannon Dooley | 8:11
Yes.
Julie Swan | 8:11
Yeah. Okay.
Shannon Dooley | 8:12
Yeah. Yeah.
And in terms of bringing in the new line to Australia, there were a few other breeders who were definitely interested in her pups. But because mom didn’t know the lay of the land, and you know what it can be like with certain breeders, they’re very territorial about who they will get involved with. And so she, she got tainted, you know, by certain people. And so it was just, she’s like, you know what, this is not worth it for me.
I, you know, I thought I was going to give it a go and it’s just not for me. So yeah, I think that’s wise.
Julie Swan | 8:44
Yeah. Well, I think breeding has to fit in your life. If it doesn’t work with your life or your family, it just becomes too much, you know?
So it’s really finding that balance of, of what works for you. Okay. So then you went, you’re off to the UK, you’re 21.
Oh God, the stories. No, I’m just kidding.
Shannon Dooley | 9:04
I’ll scare my children with those down the track.
Julie Swan | 9:07
Okay.
Shannon Dooley | 9:09
It was the nineties. That’s all you need to know.
Julie Swan | 9:13
All right. So anything relevant to breeding happened in the UK?
Shannon Dooley | 9:18
So I’d been in the UK, I think, 10 years before I was able to get my own dog. And I was in a flat of my own by that point. I was thought, alright, it’s time.
I’ve wanted one forever. And so I knew to go to the UK Kennel Club website, and just look up some breeders there and I rang around, because that’s what you did then and found a breeder. And so we went to see the pups.
I took one of my friends with me and got to see their whole setup. It was a family breeder who used top studs from one of the, at the time, the top kennel. So really beautiful puppy.
And yeah, that was Possum and yeah, she was my best friend. And I think I was getting near to sort of my thirties by that point. So, you know, you start to get a bit clucky, you know what you get a puppy, it cures all of that.
And it was great because in London, you can sort of go places with your puppy. You can take them to the cafe. And I had a great neighbor who was two doors up.
He had a collection of dogs. I could take her there while I was at work all day. So she basically got doggy daycare with the neighbors, and he would take her up to Wimbledon Common every afternoon.
And so she just wade into the pond. And so I had this disgusting smelling dog every day when I came home from work, but she had a great life, you know, she got super blessed and got to hang out with other dogs. She actually got to meet Cesar Milan as well, because he came over and did a video shoot and he happened to be at Wimbledon Common.
Julie Swan | 11:01
So wow. That’s so fun.
Shannon Dooley | 11:04
Yeah. I said to her, you got to meet like dog man royalty. Like really.
Julie Swan | 11:10
That’s great. So you had her for a long time. Did you ever breed her or was she just kind of getting back your feet wet?
Shannon Dooley | 11:17
I thought about it, but I hadn’t got the full papers with her.
Julie Swan | 11:21
Sure.
Shannon Dooley | 11:22
And at that point I would always plan to breed, but it was going to be tricky for me to do that in the UK.
I thought because I was working full time, and I thought it’s more a sort of thing that I want to do maybe when I have kids, you know, and I’m home. So, and then shoot forward a bit. I met my husband when Possum was about four, I think.
And we got married the year after. And then we added in another one. So I went back to the same breeder.
She didn’t have any litters coming up, but she said to go to Barry who’s at Rise Park. So he’s like Mr. Miniature Schnauzer. So I approached him and then he had a puppy a few months later available for us.
And that was Monkey. So we had Possum, we had Monkey and we had our pair. And again, I didn’t get breeding rights with her.
So it was something that we were going to sort of look at down the track. Then we had bad news in terms of my stepdad was terminally ill with cancer. So we had to make the big call to basically move to Perth.
So my husband’s not from here, he’s from South Africa. So it was, it was a big deal for him, but we moved back. And yeah, so that was kind of a sort of traumatic move and then dealing with the whole months that ensued after that.
But then yeah, dog wise, we just kind of sat on it, and I couldn’t do any breeding in terms of the dogs that I had. Because the UK Kennel Club is not very great, or at the time wasn’t very great, at getting paperwork sent out of their country. I’m still waiting. And yeah, so Barry did warn me, but so I thought, you know what, I’ll just start again, you know, and get a dog in Australia and when it’s time.
So fast forward a bit more and I’m homeschooling. I thought I can do this now. Let’s just do it.
So we, I started looking for an ANKC. So that’s our Dogs Australia equivalent of the AKC. And it’s hard getting a dog in Australia.
Very, very hard to get the sort of dog that you want. A lot of breeders, quite rightly, they don’t know you from Adam, even though you’ve been in the breed a long time. And you know, my mum’s bred and was an ANKC breeder.
A lot of people just, they don’t want to have new people join. They’ve been burnt so many times before. Some of them have just had a strict no policy the whole time, you know, they don’t want to share.
So fair enough. So anyways, I got a dog and it’s just so happened another two breeders from Perth were getting siblings from the same litter and they were getting on a flight from Sydney to come to Perth. So we met at the airport to pick up our puppies and they asked, are you going to show Sarah?
I’m like, no, a world of no. They said, well just come to the dog show this weekend. And so we’re like, okay.
And so we went that weekend and my daughters and I had the best day. And so we’re like, we’re going to do it. So, yeah.
So we started out showing her, and I could tell that she wasn’t going to have a successful show career after a little while. And it was a huge learning curve because miniature Schnauzers grooming is for the show ring, they must be hand-stripped on their jackets. So, you know, a pet is just clipped.
That’s like a three minute job, but you know, this is a must hand-strip because you want that wired jacket coming through. So that was me learning, but I actually loved it. So I love sort of going off and learning things, new things as well, the shiny new things.
So we, I did that. But in the meantime, I knew, okay, this is not going to work with this dog, but she’s still great for breeding. You know, I’ll still get to do that side of things down the track as well.
So then I set about looking for a new dog.
Julie Swan | 15:36
A stud for compliment?
Shannon Dooley | 15:42
Yes, I did actually. Yeah.
And because there was by that point, I’d sort of looked around amongst what had been shown in Australia, what was doing well. And in terms of getting a dog into Australia, who’s prepared to work with someone that maybe is new to showing. And so I reached out to a breeder in Argentina, and they were very well-versed on sending dogs to Australia, which is a complicated process.
Julie Swan | 16:12
Yeah.
Shannon Dooley | 16:13
Not everyone’s got the pain threshold to deal with it.
Julie Swan | 16:18
Understandable. Well, was there a language barrier at all when you were working with going to Argentina? Because they’re native Spanish speakers, correct?
Shannon Dooley | 16:27
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So this is a couple of sisters.
And so Marielle, who I dealt with, she was actually learning English. And so we had a lot of chats. It’s the thing, people don’t tell you, you’re going to spend a lot of time chatting on WhatsApp or whatever.
But yeah, we built a real friendship. And that’s the wonderful thing. You get this bond with people.
And so I said, okay, well, this is my bitch. And I’d really like a pepper and salt boy. So have you got any puppies available?
And so she sent me a picture of this puppy. And as soon as I saw it, I cried. I was like, oh my gosh, that’s pathetic, Shannon, come on.
But I was just like, oh, he’s gorgeous. So that was our boy, Solomon. So we started the process.
And by that point, I think he was about three or four months. And as long as they’ve had their first jabs and completed by three months, a month later, they can have that rabies shot. And then about three or four weeks after that, you can draw the titer.
So that’s what you need. And once that hits the lab, the pre-quarantine process starts. So that’s 180 days.
So yep, six months.
Julie Swan | 17:43
He’s still in Argentina, waiting out 180 days just so that he can be shipped.
Shannon Dooley | 17:50
And this is Covid now. So yeah, so this is Covid lockdown. So he can’t be shown.
There’s no shows in Argentina, obviously. He missed all of the things that he needed to do socializing wise. So he was acclimated to mini Schnauzers and the people that live there and the vet that visited.
And that was it. So, you know, we all got lumped with that at some point. And a lot of us needed socializing at that time as well.
So I’m sure that’s had an effect on some of us too. So yeah, so we waited and then when it was due to sort of apply for the import permit, which I got easily, it was around the time that that whole airline thing was going on, the fuel went up like ridiculously. And so we were kind of wondering whether to just wait until things settled before we got him.
And in that sort of the months that were ensuing, I also then decided I’m going to get a black and silver as well from them, because I go all in. I’m all in baby. And I love that color as well.
So I was like, right, well, I’m going to need a stud in the other color too. You know, let’s just collect. So I thought I’ll wait till Caleb.
So that’s the other one. I’ll wait till he’s old enough to come over because there was six months between them. So let’s just get them to come over at the same time.
And in the meantime here, I decided that I needed another foundation bitch that I was prepared to keep puppies from and show as well. So the contact that I’d made in Argentina, because I said, I need a wife for Solomon. So she gave me a contact in New Zealand to a breeder who I’d obviously admired, but I was just too scared to get rejected from because I’d had so many knockbacks from other breeders in Australia.
So we made the contact with Dale in New Zealand, and then she had a puppy for us. So that was obviously easier to get into Australia. We didn’t have to jump through all the same hoops.
In New Zealand, there’s no rabies. So we don’t have to do quarantine when the dog arrives, they just go through customs, a quick current quarantine check from the staff there. And it’s, you know, it’s an hour’s thing rather than, you know, a month and then 10 days in quarantine thing.
So we got a beautiful pepper and salt bitch who came in from New Zealand. So she arrived. Yeah, this was just when the shows had started sort of kicking back in post-Covid.
So that was Mercy. So she was amazing. She did really well in the show ring.
So she was my first champion. And beautiful coat to work, and she was a dream puppy. So then fast forward, we went, they had the whole issue with the airlines.
Still a lot of the airports post-Covid have not opened up to live animals. So the issue was the route. So from Argentina, they would have to go to Frankfurt, stay there in Frankfurt, a couple of days, and then go to Doha, and then to Melbourne.
So we decided to go ahead with Solomon and get him to come over. So that was a five day journey. So the poor guy, and by this point, he’s over one year old.
So everything he knew had changed. And so quite rightly, when he arrived, he was a bit thin. So yeah, we got him over.
And I think Caleb must have arrived maybe four months after that. So yeah. Yeah.
So it’s a lot of stress for them. So Caleb did four days. But yeah, we had a bit of a hiccup with Solomon when he arrived.
I don’t know what whether it was the stress, or whether he picked up some bacteria along the way, but he got hemorrhagic gastro literally five days after he arrived. So I nearly lost him. That was that was scary.
Because after I’d spent a lot of money, you know, you’re talking a flight from Argentina to Melbourne was about $8,000 Australian dollars. So it’s a lot. It was more than I paid for the dog.
Your quarantine costs is, you know, usually about two and a half thousand Australian dollars as well.
Julie Swan | 22:28
Was that the 30 days back then.
Shannon Dooley | 22:31
That was 10 days.
Julie Swan | 22:33
10 days – wow that’s so much.
Shannon Dooley | 22:34
Yeah. So it’s a lot of investment. But, for me, it’s not about whether it’s inconvenience, or it’s a big expense. My mom, bless her heart was believing in my vision for what I wanted to do.
And so she lent me the money. And she said, you know what, you can do this. And so God bless her, I wouldn’t be where I am without her, because I would have been stuck with whatever I could get here in Australia.
It put us in a unique position in that we had the three dogs, one female and two studs. And in the meantime, I got another black and silver bitch over from New Zealand from the same breeder. So I had my pair, over the course of about a year and a half, I guess that we added in a new one.
Julie Swan | 23:27
Right. And then you could probably get to breeding fairly quickly, because it took so long to get them. Well, at least the boys.
Shannon Dooley | 23:33
Yeah, so they’d aged up nicely. So we did a litter with the first female that I bought from Sydney. We managed to breed them in January last year.
Yeah, so we had our first litter. So yeah, that was great. Finally, you know, it’s so much waiting in breeding.
I think most people don’t realize how much waiting, because you’re like, great, I’ve got the dog.
Julie Swan | 24:00
Right.
Shannon Dooley | 24:00
Or it’s been born.
I’m waiting for the puppy to be old enough. And then you come here and then you you’re waiting for it to be old enough to go and show or you know, it’s just this lot of waiting.
Julie Swan | 24:10
It is so much waiting. I know. It’s so funny.
And yet the gestation is so short, but it just is so much waiting.
Shannon Dooley | 24:17
So much waiting. I know. And because you’re planning breedings ahead, you’re like, okay, great.
Julie Swan | 24:22
Oh I know.
Shannon Dooley | 24:22
And then you just like, come on time.
Julie Swan | 24:24
I know. Or you’re planning the breeding from the puppy. Like you’re planning to breed the puppy that hasn’t been born yet.
You know, like a couple of generations.
Shannon Dooley | 24:33
I have done that. Yes. I know.
So I love, you know, when you can get breeding software that you can do that. You’re like, great.
Julie Swan | 24:41
Yeah.
Shannon Dooley | 24:42
I know. And then it’s the discussions with the husband. We need to move.
Julie Swan | 24:47
Yeah. And yeah, that’s always a fun one. He’s like, yeah. More dogs. What?
Shannon Dooley | 24:52
Yeah. I know. I like that whole, what is it?
Ask for forgiveness, not permission. Like, I might be guilty of that.
Julie Swan | 25:04
I think I asked Bill the other day. I said, would you have stayed with me if you knew what breeding was really like? And he’s like, yeah, I’m not sure.
Shannon Dooley | 25:14
I know. I know because I think my husband, because when I went in, he thought, you know, he’s like, okay, well, you’re going to get this much for a puppy and you can breed this many litters. And he didn’t factor in, it costs a lot to firstly import and show, and then all your health testing and the food is a lot, you know, so breaking even is, it ain’t happen. Not yet.
Julie Swan | 25:44
It takes a minute. But I mean, it’s gotta be a lot more considering how much work you had to do in importing. I mean, the importing sounds like it just, it probably tripled or quadrupled the price.
Shannon Dooley | 25:57
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. It’s tens and tens of thousands of dollars.
But no regrets. And, you know, it’s helped me kick goals that it would have taken me a longer time to do. Yeah.
Julie Swan | 26:13
To build with what you had.
Shannon Dooley | 26:14
And I mean, certainly if I talked to myself a few years ago, I would have just said, just pick one color, Shannon, just pick one. But I’m like, no, I need the two colors that I love. But yeah, for me, it’s tricky because I mean, the salt and pepper are the ones it’s, aside from solid blacks, it’s dominant genetically.
So, and it’s popular with a lot of judges, because that’s just what their eyes have been trained to. And it’s the traditional color for the Schnauzer and the standard Schnauzer where the minis come from, but the black and silver, because it’s recessive, I just love it. It’s beautiful.
But also there’s not a lot of amazing black and silver dogs in Australia, but even like across the earth. So I kind of, I have that urge in me to want to help do what I can for the breed. So yeah, that’s just where I’m at.
Julie Swan | 27:11
Yeah. Yeah, that’s fun.
Shannon Dooley | 27:13
Legacy. Legacy is huge to me as well. So, you know, you want to leave the breed better than I found it.
Julie Swan | 27:21
And with a goal and then your families are happy and the dogs are taken care of. It’s good. So are you doing shows now?
Shannon Dooley | 27:30
Yes, we have had a really big year of showing. So Eden is my first keeper from, it was Mercy and Solomon. So she was born June last year.
So we started showing her, her first show was the Perth Royal show. So there’s this teeny puppy, and in Australia, the miniature Schnauzer is not in the terrier group. It’s in the utility group.
So that’s all your very large snow dogs and guardian breeds, and us, and the Shiba Inu. So it’s a tough nut to crack, you know, in the group we’ve got close a few times. But yeah, so Eden, she has just had an amazing year.
So she’s the number one bitch in the state. At the moment, I believe she’s still number one in the country in terms of point score and also the rising star. So that’s points up until they’re one and a half, basically, which in Western Australia is very difficult because we don’t have the number of shows that the eastern states do.
We also don’t have a lot of regional shows that are not as densely populated. Mostly all of our show breeders here will go to our three regional shows. And so you can’t sort of have an entry of 20 dogs in a group and get a best in group.
So I feel very blessed that we’ve kicked so many goals with her. So she’s due her first litter this week. So that’s super exciting.
And now we’re showing her younger sister, so a half sister. And I’m letting my daughter show her. So it’s been fun for her.
They had their first weekend out together. We got a best of breed on Saturday night. So that was awesome.
You know, really, really great. And she won best of breed at the Royal show this year. So her dad won it last year.
Caleb’s her dad and she won it this year. So that was really cool.
Julie Swan | 29:37
Yeah.
Shannon Dooley | 29:38
Because you never know judges, you know, you never know what they love, what they’re looking for. If only we knew.
Julie Swan | 29:47
Right. I know it’s like the secret sauce. So your daughter, is she doing the handling or do you have a handler?
Shannon Dooley | 29:56
So handling’s a bit different here. So we don’t have professional handlers in Australia.
I don’t think they’re allowed. But you can you can obviously ask people to handle your dogs, but it’s not like an official job.
So, yes, but my daughters, so they both do junior handlers. And so they’ve been doing that for I think this is their third year. Yeah.
So they love handling. It’s more difficult with our breed, because they’re not a wash and wear breed. I can’t get three dogs ready for every show so we can all show a dog.
So but as Eden’s, you know, finished her year, I said to Evangeline, you know, Anna’s your dog, you show her. And because you know what it’s like when your mum is about to have her babies, she does not want you leaving the house. I’m like, you, you go.
And I’ve got a dear friend who’s a groomer, so she helps groom the dogs for us at the show. And yeah, and then Evangeline took her in. So and my friends actually help handle as well.
So it’s great when you find people who love your breed, love handling. You know, it just works for you because, yeah, it’s hard to get to every dog show.
Julie Swan | 31:12
Oh, gosh yeah.
Shannon Dooley | 31:13
It’s exhausting.
Julie Swan | 31:14
I haven’t dabbled in it, but just the thought of trying to plan that around everything else feels crazy to me.
Shannon Dooley | 31:20
I call it the hurry up and wait, because, you know, you’ve got to get up early. Quick, quick, quick. Get the dog ready.
Get everyone in the car. And then you get to the dog show and you’re like, OK, wait, wait, wait. Yes.
Julie Swan | 31:34
Yeah.
Well, congratulations. That’s just that’s just awesome.
Shannon Dooley | 31:39
It’s pretty cool.
I’m very, very happy.
Julie Swan | 31:42
Yeah. Can you tell us a little about marketing in Australia?
How is it? How do you guys market dogs there? Is there anything different that you see?
Shannon Dooley | 31:53
So we’ve got the Gumtree here. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that. It’s probably akin to the Craigslist that you have.
So that’s where backyard breeders would sell their puppies. But otherwise, for ANKC breeders, we have dogzonline. That’s with a Zed.
So that’s where you can post your show results, your puppies for sale. You can showcase the dogs that you own, and you can do a write up on them, put pictures on there. So that’s for registered breeders.
So that’s I’d say a lot of breeders would sell their puppies there. Some breeders would have websites, and plenty of them have Facebook as well. So you obviously have to do the dance with Facebook.
Make sure you’re not selling. But I mean, to date, I’ve sold one through Facebook. So I wouldn’t say it’s been super.
It’s you know what people like. It’s a voyeuristic kind of window shopping kind of vibe on Facebook. I feel like it’s not really a place that I spend a lot of time.
I initially was doing a post every week, and now I’m like, I’ve built enough momentum with my actual email list, so I don’t have to put things out into the public too much. So, yeah.
Julie Swan | 33:12
And I think you were saying that the pace of emails is a little more relaxed there. Is that right?
Shannon Dooley | 33:19
Yes. I’d say, yeah, the email marketing here. I have if I send too many, I get a lot of unsubscribes. So I tend to wait and I just do sort of a get some information out in a newsletter every sort of quarter.
And then when I’ve got news, OK, we’ve got a mating upcoming, or we’ve confirmed the mating. Then I’ll sort of send out some messages. But we’ve done a few events as well.
So mostly the email and then with Dogs West, which is our Dogs Australia body that’s in our state. They have an open day, usually once every year or two. So we did that.
And it’s nice because people are up for meeting puppies and they’re generally up for meeting the breeds. And they generally if they come to us, they’re interested in a puppy. And they get to meet our dogs, which, you know, I love.
Julie Swan | 34:14
It’s almost like a fair where they can meet everybody.
Shannon Dooley | 34:17
Yes.
Julie Swan | 34:17
And so it’s almost like an open house, but you all come together.
Is that right? And then your dogs might be there. They meet you.
And then is this where you would grab them and put them on your email list? And then when the time comes and they get your email, they’ll take action.
Shannon Dooley | 34:31
Yeah. So we sort of have a sign up. This is when we’re expecting to do matings, upcoming litters.
This is when they will expect to go home. Just so people can kind of visualize, OK, does that fit into my life? You know, kind of laying it out for people.
And then obviously the dogs are the ones that do the work. You know, they get to meet these dogs, and wow. You know, we always get that feedback.
They’re so amazing. They just stay on the table and they’ve got such good manners. Yeah.
Well, show dogs are used to standing on a table, being touched by random people. It does help.
Julie Swan | 35:07
Oh, that’s perfect. That’s perfect. Oh, I love that.
And so you were also telling me a little bit about how you do things differently there, maybe a little bit more natural in your diet. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, what you found or why you opted for that?
Shannon Dooley | 35:24
Yeah. So on my own personal health journey a few years back, I started really looking at the chemicals that we have in our home in terms of cleaning, fragrances, even perfume that I was wearing, skincare products. And I just thought, no, I’ve got to get this all out.
And then I was like, well, I’ve got to do this for the animals as well, because they have no say in it. And they can’t tell me if they’re feeling crummy because I’ve got a candle burning or, you know, whatever it is. So I just started pulling that all out.
And then I decided I can’t remember what it was, but I just thought, you know what, they don’t eat this kibble. And I’d always get like the good quality kibble and grain free and all the rest. I don’t see them eating this in the wild.
Let’s just bring it back and keep it simple. Let’s try and find what they would eat in the wild. And then, of course, I did a bit of delving online and found websites like Dogs Naturally.
And I was like, awesome. This is great. I love this.
So I switched them. And the change in their body composition was huge. They were never overweight because I’d always measure out their food.
But I could see the outlines of their muscles. And I was like, wow, that looks amazing. And then they would come and thank me.
Literally after their food, they’d come up to me with their little stumps wagging and they’ll be like, thanks, mom, because they got a bone to chew on. And, you know, it releases their endorphins. Their happy hormones from chewing a bone.
And I was like, this is awesome. We’re going to keep doing this. And I hadn’t discovered there was a company here that like pre does the rolls with all the right proportions and everything.
At that point, I was literally finding the stuff at the supermarket and it was very time consuming. But this was back in the day when I just had Possum and Monkey. And then I was doing the just let’s keep it simple.
Let’s pull all the chemicals out. I had Possum who had leg tremors from. And I do think because I used to do those pipette things that you put on their skin between their shoulder blades.
Julie Swan | 37:42
Topical flea and tick medicine?
Shannon Dooley | 37:44
Yeah. And, you know, looking into that and realizing it’s a neurotoxin. I was like, no, we’re not going to do this anymore.
You know, I really need to be my animal’s advocate. So it was going on all of those rabbit trails and finding out, OK, how can we deal with this naturally? And so fast forward to obviously my breeding dogs.
I was like, right. I by that point discovered Juliette de Bairacli Levy, who is like the grandma of the natural rearing movement. And she was this wonderful lady who lived all over, but she naturally reared her animals.
And so she’s got these books that you can you can get them on Amazon. But yeah, it was natural rearing. So I kind of did a deep dive into that.
And yeah, I could see the difference. I did not have to take my my dogs to yearly teeth cleans anymore. Or have teeth removed. Because obviously having beards, the miniature Schnauzer is going to have hair that goes in the mouth, and that can create more of a problem.
Yeah, they’re not eating 60 percent carb at every meal that starts digesting in the mouth. So, yeah, I know it’s not for everybody. I totally get that.
But for me, I just it was night and day difference. My dogs were healthier, happier. I was not having to go to the vet anymore for itchy this itchy that.
Yeah, I just didn’t look back from then. So then I was looking at things like the worming, so naturally worming. It can be well, because obviously with the cycle, the life cycle of the worm kind of goes with the moon, not to be woo woo or anything, but yeah, it just it happens.
The full moon thing is real. Lunatics, they do happen. Yeah.
So we do diatomaceous earth. We do garlic. We do pumpkin seeds as well.
Yeah. Pepitas, ground pepitas. And then the other thing you can do is kangaroo ears or bunny ears, nice and hairy and they help drag out not to get graphic, but said worms.
Yeah. So it was just learning all of those ways of naturally doing things to actually boost the immune system of the dogs so they can deal with whatever they encounter.
Julie Swan | 40:19
Yeah, absolutely. And they look great. They feel great.
Shannon Dooley | 40:22
Yeah, happy, happy coats, nice, bright eyes. And yeah, Possum lived to 15 and a half. I don’t think she would have got there if I had been doing things you know, the way that I was.
And so, yeah, no regrets at all.
Julie Swan | 40:40
No, it’s good. And so now you get a commercially prepared one, and that’s a little bit more just simple.
Shannon Dooley | 40:46
Yes. My brother in law has a company here called Wild Pet, and so they have the whole animal and they portion it out. So it’s got bone, organ, muscle and skin. So all the things that they need to support all of their organs and yeah.
Much easier to clean up after a raw fed dog, I can tell you.
Julie Swan | 41:13
And here in Arizona, because it’s so dry, raw fed dogs, their poop just like disintegrates and blows away. Like it’s like it was crazy. I remember I was doing raw for two weeks and I had missed cleaning my kennels, because it was like not bad enough to even notice.
Like it was so insane. I was like, oh, this is not good.
Shannon Dooley | 41:38
It’s night and day different.
Julie Swan | 41:40
Yeah, it is. If you can do it, it’s wonderful. So, yeah, that’s perfect.
So that’s that’s great. Oh, that is so good. So I love this.
Shannon Dooley | 41:53
And I teach my puppy buyers, because, you know, you’ve got their attention that time between them knowing the puppy’s born, and them knowing which one they’re getting down the track. You know, so I’m like, if you want the most memories with this dog. This is how I’m going to set you up for success.
You’re going to feed this way. You go to this place. You do this with the worming.
You make sure that they get a raw bone two or three times a week. You will get 15, maybe more years out of your dog. I want that for you.
So I really try to get in their hearts, because for me, the ultimate success is for them to have a dog that lives a long, optimally healthy life.
Julie Swan | 42:40
Right. Exactly. Because then they get to enjoy.
They have all that quality time without what can come with it or the shortened life. And yeah, absolutely.
Shannon Dooley | 42:50
Exactly. And I realize there’s a lot of mindset shift dealing. You’re having to overcome because.
They want convenience. We’ve all been drummed into us, you know, oh, pour it from the bag. You know, it’s much easier for you, but easier is not always better.
And yeah, I just I’m hoping and praying that actually it gets through to them. And for the most part, a lot of them do.
Julie Swan | 43:16
That’s great. Right. What do you use? Do you have a certain method, or how are you conveying this information to them in preparation?
Shannon Dooley | 43:27
So I’ve got Kit and I use an email series, that I’ve just set up. So I just thought, you know what, this is what we do. And then I end up turning that into my puppy guide that they get a printed copy of as well.
Julie Swan | 43:41
So, yeah, it just covers everything.
Shannon Dooley | 43:44
Yes. You still get texts. You still get calls.
Julie Swan | 43:48
I know, I don’t think that’s avoidable.
Shannon Dooley | 43:51
You still need to hold some hands.
Julie Swan | 43:53
You find that it’s faster. I think it’s so much faster because it’s like, oh, you can remember this email.
Or now I’ve been sending my email series. And at the beginning of it, it says, hey, I’m about to blow up your email over the next few weeks. Just put them all in a folder.
You reference them.
Shannon Dooley | 44:07
Yeah. But it depends on the generation of the people. So the older people, they tend to want to give you a call. So that’s all right.
Julie Swan | 44:16
No, it’s very true. My Rat Terrier people are mostly retirees, 60s, almost 70s for a lot of them. My GSP people, you know, they’re young.
Let’s just text it out.
Shannon Dooley | 44:26
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 44:28
Yes.
I love it. Any advice for new breeders or people getting into it?
Shannon Dooley | 44:36
I would definitely tell people to plan things out, write things, like plan it forward. And keep it as simple as possible in the beginning, and find people, breeders that you really, really admire and want to work with, and build a relationship with them. Because it really does take a village. I wouldn’t be where I am, and know what I know, without having these relationships with my two mentors in the other breeds.
But also, you know, just finding people who are older in the breed where you are at to to give you more history. If that’s what’s important to you. And also learning about genetics, you’re never going to regret learning about. What sort of traits, what sort of diseases you’re dealing with, collecting photos of dogs that you really love.
And really knowing your breed standard, I think a lot of people maybe give this part a miss, especially if they’re not showing and think, oh, it’s not important. It really is. We are custodians of breeds.
We need to have a heart for that silhouette of the breed, because if we’re not hitting that, we’re making messes because it’s structure, it’s movement. It’s when the dog gets older, it’s going to have issues if you’re not dealing with that in the whelping box.
Julie Swan | 46:01
I don’t think you can bypass. I know, like the joke I always tell people, I’m like, they’re pretty, but they’re pretty because they’re structurally sound and they move. You know, I love that.
Shannon Dooley | 46:15
You know when it’s all come together, because that dog moves in your yard, and you’re just like, I can’t stop watching. It’s so pretty.
Julie Swan | 46:22
Or in my case, they jump my fences and you’re like, so pretty. I’m going to go kill it.
Yes, I got it, right? Strangle that dog. No, it’s good.
Sometimes I think, why I decided to take on one of the most athletic train wrecks there is, but that’s what we did.
Shannon Dooley | 46:41
You needed to grow in patience or something.
Julie Swan | 46:45
Right, yes, exactly.
What do they say of God? You ask God for patience. He gives you lines.
Yeah, that’s good. Moral, stand in.
Shannon Dooley | 46:53
Oh, absolutely. That’s why I thought I’d homeschool because I was like, right. I need to be more patient.
I’m not sure I’m getting it yet.
Julie Swan | 47:01
It’s ok, you’ve got some more time. It’ll just be more time. Oh, this is wonderful.
Well, thank you so much for coming on. This has just been a joy hearing your story. And I love what you’re doing.
And I love the natural ways you’ve gone through. And yes, it’s wonderful. And it’s neat to see the different perspective from where you’re at, because it is different, it’s very different.
Shannon Dooley | 47:24
It is. It is. And look, we’re now importing another dog. So we’re going through it all again.
Because I’m a sucker for punishment. But you know what? When you’ve got that passion and you want to do something well, you know, you don’t listen to people who are going to put down your dream.
If it’s your dream to do something, and you can see that you can do it, and you’ve got the space in your room, in your life, you know, definitely give it a go.
Julie Swan | 47:52
Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, one last question.
Shannon Dooley | 47:55
Oh, yeah.
Julie Swan | 47:56
Culture for breeders. You know, here there’s so much breeder bashing.
Is that there?
Shannon Dooley | 48:03
Absolutely.
Julie Swan | 48:05
From the rescue world?
Shannon Dooley | 48:08
Yeah, we’ve definitely, like walking around my neighborhood. It’s mostly rescues.
Julie Swan | 48:12
OK.
Shannon Dooley | 48:13
And so that’s had a massive impact. They’ve obviously the ARA have infiltrated governments, local governments.
Julie Swan | 48:26
That’s animal rights activists?
Shannon Dooley | 48:27
Animal rights activists, yeah, yup. So, I mean, my husband’s involved in politics here and he will obviously sort of weigh in where he can. But here in Perth, we’ve had something recently.
There’s been legislation passed through and it’s packaged as this bill called the Stop Puppy Farming Bill. Sounds nice. But the meat and potatoes behind it are basically – tax honest people more.
You have to have your dogs have to be registered. You have to be registered as a breeder with your local council, and they will build a database then. And then if you’ve got an entire dog, it’s more expensive, and you have to have them registered each year.
And anything over two years old, I think it’s two must be de-sexed. They’re basically just squashing any. But if you don’t learn that they can’t do that, that you push back.
You have to learn your rights, which I recognize. It’s very difficult for a lot of people because they’ve been taught from being in school systems, obey, obey, obey. Instead of asking why, why do I need to do that?
And so it does make sense to invest time in learning about what your rights are as a breeder, and making sure that you’re protecting what you’re doing, because I think a lot of people will be put off and think, all right, it’s not worth it. I’m just going to give up. Which is devastation for breeds, because there’s a lot of breeds that are needing help. And there’s not enough breeders bringing them into the country or breeding them as it is.
And as you know, this has been a tricky year for puppy sales. So you factor in all of this. There’s a lot of people are just going to, you know what, I’m gone, I’m out.
But marketing wise for dogs, I think as well, within the purebred side of things, there’s this real hardheadedness, I think it is with the older breeders about learning about how to market. And there’s this shame in actually making money out of what you’re doing, what you’re spending all this time and effort and learning and doing and worry. Let’s go there.
There’s a lot of worry. So I think for other up and coming breeders and younger people who go, you know what, we’ve grown up in a world where marketing is just a thing. There’s no shame in it.
You know, if you are doing something well, you should be able to say so. You know, there’s no shame in that whatsoever. So I think for those of us who are willing to put in the time and the effort and find those ideal puppy buyers, then you’re never going to look back.
It’s not a bad thing. And just don’t listen to the haters.
Julie Swan | 51:25
Yeah. And so are you finding, these older breeders are actually, they’re resistant to the idea of having to market? Like, do they think people should just come naturally?
Or are they also of the mindset that marketing is akin to making money and money is not OK in breeding?
Shannon Dooley | 51:43
I’d say both. There are people who believe that you shouldn’t be making money from your puppies, but then you’ve got the other side of it, where there’s people making a lot of money. You know, they’ve got a lot of dogs, too many dogs.
Are they really getting the attention that they need? You know, so I only can concentrate what’s going on in my yard, making sure that what I’m doing is ethical. And a lot of people throw that term out.
I like to say breed ethical. Am I doing right by my breed? Am I accountable to the breed standard, to my mentors, to making sure that I’m improving each generation?
But marketing, you know, it’s not going to be for everybody. I think you’re always going to have that person that’s “you shouldn’t be making a living off your dogs”. It’s like, well.
If you’re not making something to cover the costs of your dogs and you’re behind financially, then you’re doing something wrong in my mind. But, you know, I’m not here to make money for me. This is obviously something that I do because I love it.
I fell into the showing. But now it’s it’s given me a lot more opportunity. Opened more doors.
And it means I can actually do even better in the welcome box than I would have before.
Julie Swan | 53:05
Yeah, it really works for you. And obviously you’re getting the results. So it’s fantastic.
Shannon Dooley | 53:10
And we’re happy where we’re at for how long we’ve been doing this. Yeah, it’s a real blessing. So I don’t take it for granted.
You never know. You don’t always get the dream dog. But yeah, we’re kicking goals.
Julie Swan | 53:24
I love it. All right. Well, thank you so much.
Shannon Dooley | 53:27
You’re welcome. Thanks so much for having us. And I hope everyone loves hearing a different perspective.
Julie Swan | 53:33
Yes, it’s very interesting. Yeah.
Shannon Dooley | 53:36
And don’t be afraid to import a dog. Like if you love a dog, just yeah.
Julie Swan | 53:41
Just do it and tell your husband later.
Shannon Dooley | 53:43
Yeah, exactly.
Julie Swan | 53:48
Do you have a website or anything you want to list? Yes, we’ve got a website that’s almost finished.
Shannon Dooley | 53:56
So it’s howlehuyah.com. And we’re also on Facebook and Instagram a bit.
Julie Swan | 54:14
Yeah, that’s understandable. It doesn’t seem like it’s much of a marketing move out there. Yeah.
Shannon Dooley | 54:18
No, I mean, Instagram is not really huge here in terms of selling puppies. I think there’s a lot of breeders and show breeders on there who put the results and that sort of thing.
But yeah, and same with Facebook, Facebook’s just, that place that people go to have a checkout from their day.
Julie Swan | 54:36
Yeah, it’s like Facebook is just like this, like weird necessary thing. Not necessarily for marketing, but it’s like you just you have to have it for certain things.
Shannon Dooley | 54:48
Yes, it does feel like it. But I’m sure people did plenty fine before it as well. So, yeah.
Julie Swan | 54:56
It’s weird, I know. All right. Well, thank you so much.
Shannon Dooley | 54:59
Thank you, Julie. Thank you.
