The 12 Days of Breeders is a series of interviews conducted with members of the Dog Breeder Society who are doing innovative, creative, and inspiring things in their dog breeding business. In each of these interviews we cover challenges each breeder has encountered, and how they’ve overcome those challenges to find success in their breeding program. Join me for all twelve of these interviews for inspiration, and countless actionable tips you can use to overcome (or avoid) challenges in your own dog breeding program! You can check out all of the interviews in this series here.
Courtney Guthrie and Desert Canyon K9 German Shepherds
Meet a friend of mine, Courtney Guthrie! She’s been a breeder for many years, breeding primarily German Shepherds as working dogs. In this episode Courtney and I discuss the cultural differences of different breeds. Courtney shares some wonderful training tips to help with older puppies and just training in general, things that are easy to do throughout the day, but that really turn great returns. She also discusses co-owns, the good and the bad and what she recommends.
Learn more about Courtney and Desert Canyon German Shepherds
Transcript
Julie Swan | 0:24
You guys are in for a treat today. Today we have my dear friend Courtney Guthrie of Desert Canyon K9. Courtney, thanks so much for coming on the show today.
Courtney Guthrie | 0:33
Hey.
Julie Swan | 0:35
So tell us, how did you get started in dog breeding? Because this is not new to you.
You’ve been doing this a while.
Courtney Guthrie | 0:41
Oh, yeah. I got started back in 2007. I met my first mentor in working line German Shepherds, and that’s when I really got super interested and going in the breed.
I really pretty much owe everything that I have in Shepherds now to her, like honestly. She gave me so much of her knowledge and pedigrees and, like buying and importing, and just raising litters, the things you do, and the way you do things, and stuff like that. I got my first working line Shepherd from her and I’ve been in it ever since.
I did Schutzhund back when it was Schutzhund and then it went to IPO and I think now it’s like IGP or whatever it is. And then I recently moved to PSA, and I’m probably going to switch back to like IGP, because it’s a little more common down here. And just for ease of training, and stuff like that, with having a kid, and school schedules, and sports schedules.
Julie Swan | 2:20
Yeah, that can change the dynamic a little bit with breeding.
Courtney Guthrie | 2:21
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 2:23
Yeah.
You’re busy too. Because you’re often doing training. How often, is it weekly or multiple times a week?
Courtney Guthrie | 2:31
Yeah. I mean with my current dogs, I train them daily, just to keep them busy. I train each of them daily.
It ends up being about an hour-ish a day. And then I have other breeds too, cause I’m kind of eclectic. I like a lot of different breeds.
I’m a dog groomer by trade. So being a dog groomer, you get to experience a lot of different breeds, and you only get a short amount of time with them, but you really get to experience a lot of different breeds, and really cool breeds. So I also have Caucasian Ovcharkas.
Julie Swan | 3:26
Which are, can you tell us a little, in case people aren’t familiar with that.
Courtney Guthrie | 3:30
So they’re, they’re Russian mountain dogs or Russian bear dogs is what they’re commonly known as, Caucasian Shepherds.
Julie Swan | 3:39
They look like giant bears too.
Courtney Guthrie | 3:42
Yeah.
Our neighbor literally stopped and asked us one day, they’re like, is that a bear? I’m like, no, we don’t have a bear in Arizona. We’re not walking our bear around our yard.
No, we’re not quite that crazy. I mean a little bit, I mean, okay. Maybe if we could, but.
I have, four of them, three right now, soon to be four. So they’re, I’m kind of delving into them. They’re kind of my new venture.
They’re really cool. Funny enough, they’re what most people would say are a lot harder than the German Shepherds. I find them so much easier than Shepherds.
Julie Swan | 4:36
What’s different.
Courtney Guthrie | 4:38
They’re easy. They’re super independent, because obviously they’re like a property guardian, livestock guardian type of dog.
They were bred to be estate guardians. So they’re bred to be independent workers, just patrolling. Training wise, that means like at food time.
They’re going to be at your door, you know, waiting for their food. But otherwise, they’re not under your feet.
They’re not constantly wanting your attention. They’re off doing their own thing, what they’re supposed to be doing. They’re just a real different energy.
But then, when it comes time for them to run off a coyote, or there’s someone walking past or something, they’re very quick to react. So it’s really cool just to watch them.
Julie Swan | 5:38
Yeah. Do you think people get frustrated with it?
Because, I’ve noticed with my livestock guardian dog, he’s just such an independent thinker, that he could kind of care less what I was doing. If we did training, he doesn’t know how to sit, he doesn’t know how to, he just comes when I call him, he likes to get pet, and he’s like, I’ll handle everything else. You just stay over there.
It’s a very different relationship compared to like, say a German Shorthair. Who’s like, did you want to hang out with me now? Can I sit with you?
Can I touch you. Yeah. It’s very different.
Courtney Guthrie | 6:08
Yeah, and people get frustrated with them, because I don’t think people respect them for what they are. I think people want a cuddly fluffy bear, and that’s not really what they are. They’re a working dog.
That’s what they’re bred to do. You know, they’re bred to patrol, and hang out over there, and just be there.
Julie Swan | 6:39
It wouldn’t be good if they were that cuddly attached to you dog, they wouldn’t do their job. Right.
Courtney Guthrie | 6:43
Right. Right. Yeah.
I’m really finding a lot of fun in them, and watching them. I have, my oldest female is from Russia. My youngest female is from Poland, and then my male is from Romania, and I have another male that’s from Serbia.
Julie Swan | 7:04
How was it importing? Was it hard?
Courtney Guthrie | 7:07
Thankfully I didn’t have to do any of the importing. I’ve got some great friends.
Julie Swan | 7:13
Okay. Yeah. I know some breeders I talk to, they’re like, Oh, I speak Russian.
I’m like, Oh, well that’s convenient. They’re like, yeah, it’s not a big deal. I’m like, Oh, okay.
Courtney Guthrie | 7:23
No, I’ve been really, really blessed with some really great friends in the dog community along the way. As much as people can say the dog communities a lot of bad, there’s a lot of good to be found in it too.
And I’ve been really blessed.
Julie Swan | 7:41
That’s awesome. Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 7:43
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 7:44
That’s good. But you’re so generous with your information and knowledge anyway. So I’m sure you’re giving it back.
Courtney Guthrie | 7:49
I try.
Julie Swan | 7:50
That’s good. All right.
So you have, Oh, I’m going to say their name. Caucasian. What is it?
Courtney Guthrie | 7:56
Caucasian Ovcharkas.
Julie Swan | 7:57
Ovcharkas. And you’ve got German Shepherds and those are your main ones.
And you’ve bred a couple other breeds. You had a Frenchie litter at one point.
Courtney Guthrie | 8:03
Yeah. We have a little French Bulldog, and then we have a Bull Terrier.
Julie Swan | 8:11
Oh yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 8:12
Just randoms.
Julie Swan | 8:14
Cute dogs though.
Courtney Guthrie | 8:16
Yeah. They’re really cool.
Yeah. The Frenchie we, I thought that I might want to breed Frenchies. I didn’t.
That was a really bad idea. I didn’t want to breed Frenchies. I don’t think anything requiring a C-section is not for me.
Julie Swan | 8:38
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 8:38
No. There’s something to be said for natural births for sure. They’re so fragile.
We lost the whole litter. Yeah. Within hours, it was probably one of the most traumatic litters I think I’ve ever experienced.
Julie Swan | 8:59
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 9:00
I wouldn’t. Yeah.
We spayed our French Bulldog. In fact, we actually spayed her at the time of the C-section because once, I was realizing like, okay, we’re going to have to have a C-section. If we want to breed her again, it’s going to be another C-section.
Like that’s another surgery, another putting her under, like, it’s just not worth it at the end of the day to me. Because at the end of the day, as much as I’d like to say like, that this is a business, I really do this because I love the dogs. Like, I love the dogs.
I like, we like having them.
Julie Swan | 9:44
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 9:44
We love them.
Julie Swan | 9:46
Yeah. I think you’ve always had such a love for dogs as a whole, because I remember we were talking for a time and you were, I think you were frustrated with the German Shepherd community because they are special. We’ll get into that in a bit, but you love so many, you’ve been exposed to so many different breeds. You know, you were like, maybe I just need a different breed.
And it was really hard because you loved so many breeds. Like it wasn’t like none of them really tickled your fancy. It was like a lot of them did.
Courtney Guthrie | 10:15
Yeah. And that’s true. Before I had Shepherds, I had Pit Bulls.
I actually started Schutzhund with a little Pit Bull. Her name was Red. She was the coolest little dog, 40 pounds of muscle and amazingness.
Yeah. She was awesome. We used to go to Schutzhund and she’d go out and do bite work.
And then she’d go sit in the driver’s seat of the car and just sit there and watch. Like she was the coolest dog ever. The reason we actually went to Schutzhund was because we got kicked out of the local AC club because she was dog aggressive.
I couldn’t figure out like how to train her, to be able to manage this dog aggression. Right. And I had come across the Schutzhund Club that was training at a local park, and I was watching them, and they invited me to join them.
And I trained with them for a while. And then I actually went back to the local AKC Club and was able to rejoin them with Red. And she went on to get her, we got a BH, we got a CD title.
She had so many dock diving titles. We did so much together. She was one of the coolest little dogs ever.
Julie Swan | 11:51
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 11:52
She went to college with me. She lived in New Mexico when I moved to New Mexico, like she was cool.
And that’s the little dog that really got me started. I got her in 2004, so 20 years I’ve been doing dog sports of some sort.
Julie Swan | 12:15
And there is, I think, temperament breed components, right. But you just found an outlet for those drives, and then she was more satisfied and that worked.
Courtney Guthrie | 12:26
Yeah. And I think, honestly, I think, finding the right training approach, and being open to using different training approaches, and different methods and stuff, being more open to using different tools. The AKC Club at that time was more, at that time they were more old school, just choke chains.
They didn’t want to use like any kind of like prong collar or anything like that. And the Schutzhund Club was a little more open to like prong collars and things like that. But they were also a lot more open to, the first thing they suggested to me was going and getting, a DVD called Ivan Balabanov’s, Training Without Conflict. It was his very first video that he ever did.
He’s a world level trainer and it’s actually like, it’s called The Game. There we go. And you actually don’t really have a leash on the dog when you do it.
At first you do it at home in your yard, and you have a toy, and it was really cool. And it helped just build relationship and control, through play and relationship and engagement. And that was really my first introduction into real training, I think.
And the training director at that time, he’s actually passed away now, unfortunately. He was one of the best mentors I ever had. And he really opened my eyes to a lot of training, just being more open to different training styles and different training things.
Julie Swan | 14:36
Yeah. I noticed, like Ted, I was kind of afraid of German Shepherds. I know it’s kind of embarrassing, but it’s true.
Courtney Guthrie | 14:43
I didn’t know that.
Julie Swan | 14:45
Doberman’s too, both of them. We have a friend with a Doberman and she, her dog would look at me and I was like, I don’t even know if there’s a soul in there. Like I was afraid of him, and it was so bad, and I’m trying to be calm, like I’m cool. But there was this kind of level of fear. And Ted, your Shepherd that you had, he changed my mind on German Shepherds because I was like, Oh, these can actually be like really cool, loving, super awesome dogs.
Like I knew people loved them, but I was always like, they seem so scary. But you would have him, we’d go have coffee and you just have him. He would literally just sleep under your feet at the coffee shop and he could care less what was happening.
Your daughter was little at the time. She’d climb all over him. He didn’t care.
He thought was the best thing ever. He sold me on what a German Shepherd could be.
Courtney Guthrie | 15:38
Oh, that makes me like feel really good, because that is literally, what Ted is, is what I want all of my pet puppies to go home and be for all of their people. Like that’s my goal. If you tell me you want a pet puppy, like if you put in the work in the beginning of taking it to a puppy class, and just doing a basic obedience class with it afterwards, you’ll be golden.
You’ll be golden. Just do maintenance training with it in between, and take it places with you. Just take it places with you.
Julie Swan | 16:22
Like not formal training at all. That was what I realized. You literally had Ted with you everywhere.
We would go have the kids at the park. Ted was there. We’d go to coffee.
Ted was there. It was like everywhere we went, he just came with you and it was no big deal. And that’s amazing.
Courtney Guthrie | 16:36
That’s what I do is I just take them, just take them everywhere you go, everywhere you go so that they learn that nothing is a big deal. You know, instead of socializing, I call it neutralizing. Like I don’t really care if they’re social to anything.
I want them to be neutral to everything. You know, I want them to not care about anything around them.
Julie Swan | 17:03
Yeah. Just not reactive, right?
Courtney Guthrie | 17:06
Yeah. Because Shepherds have such a bad reputation for being reactive. And rightfully so, because 90% of the ones you see in public are reactive, they’re either barking at you or barking at your dog. One of the two.
You know, they’re known for being reactive. And with that, the more you get them out as babies, the less reactive they’re going to be as adults. Like if you put in the work as babies, they’ll be better.
But trying to get your puppy people to follow through with that, a good portion of them do, but there’s always those that life happens. They fall through the cracks. Most of them are fine, you know, but you always have one or two that probably struggle.
Knock on wood. Mine have all been pretty successful.
Julie Swan | 18:12
Yeah. Do you have any tips on that? Like, how do you get your people on board?
You know, that’s something that is, especially for those breeds. You know, I always think of like Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility. And to me, a German Shepherd is kind of great power, but that’s a big responsibility.
How do you get them on board?
Courtney Guthrie | 18:31
So at first, I wasn’t really sure how to do it. And then I bought the first Caucasian Ovcharka male that my mom and I went in together on, he had a contract that came with him that had in it a liability clause. And in it read pretty much that, if you don’t do the right thing with this puppy from the beginning, it’s your liability.
Like this dog could become an inherently dangerous animal if you don’t do what you’re supposed to.
Julie Swan | 19:16
Yeah. And so that kind of caught your attention.
Courtney Guthrie | 19:18
It did. It really caught my attention. I’m like, you know what?
Like, this is probably one of the smartest things I’ve ever read in a contract. And so I stole it. I stole it.
Thank you. It was a great idea. And I put it in my contract.
And so I just have a liability clause in it now, that pretty much states, if you don’t take your puppy to a puppy class, the liability waiver covers myself, my husband and my child, against any kind of litigation that could happen because of your negligence.
Julie Swan | 20:02
Sure. And so that is something to put in. So they’re signing this.
And so this is already bringing their attention to, Hey, this is a thing. And so to kind of bypass any extra struggle. So now their attention is caught.
And then do you follow through with conversations on them? Maybe not in a scare tactic, but like, because, I know for me, I’d be like, I like this, but I want it to be like Ted. So how do I do that?
Courtney Guthrie | 20:24
I always send a text before the puppy goes home, of, Hey, have you looked at local puppy classes? Have you found any local puppy classes? Are you having trouble finding any, do you need help?
If they are, if they have found some, I always ask them, like, do you need help? Like, because I’ll be honest, for my puppy people, I’ll pay for their puppy class, like straight up, I’ll pay for their puppy class. Literally.
Julie Swan | 21:07
Got it. Just so they get it done.
Courtney Guthrie | 21:08
Yeah. If it means my puppy has a great home, that’s going to love it and care for it for the rest of its life.
If it costs me $200, like it costs me $200. That dog has a great home.
Julie Swan | 21:23
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 21:23
That as a breeder. This is where it’s a heart venture for me. And so, I do that a lot of the time.
I also will send them a referral list. If they’re in an area where I know a lot of trainers, I will like send them a list of, Hey, you’re in an area where I know a lot of really good trainers, here’s their names, feel free to contact any of them and tell them I referred you.
Julie Swan | 22:07
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 22:08
I do a lot of that. I always message them. Hey, if you have any questions, you can always text me, call me anytime.
Julie Swan | 22:20
Yeah, and you always have great stuff. I mean, you’ve helped me on so many occasions with training issues. Because we all know I suck at training.
So it’s good. I mean, you know, I’m getting better. Right.
Courtney Guthrie | 22:36
Your dogs aren’t that bad. They’re good dogs.
Julie Swan | 22:38
No, they’re temperamentally easy.
Courtney Guthrie | 22:41
They’re great dogs.
Julie Swan | 22:42
Yeah. They’re good most of the time.
They make me look better than I am. I’ll put it that way. It’s not me.
But anyway, yeah. So I agree, but yeah, you are so generous with the information. So I like that.
So you catch their attention in the contract, and then you talk to them, you prompt them and then you sort of make it almost like a, Hey, have you got this puppy class organized? Have you figured out what trainer you’re using? And so you sort of make it a standard that training isn’t, are you going to do training? It’s where are you doing training?
Courtney Guthrie | 23:12
Yeah. It’s not a are you, it’s a when.
Julie Swan | 23:19
Yeah. I love that. I think it’s perfect.
Courtney Guthrie | 23:20
It kind of helps people. And there are some people that they want to do it themselves, and I’m fine with that. They’re going into this knowing this is what needs to be done. So this is what you need to be doing.
Julie Swan | 23:40
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 23:40
So, you know, a lot of people that have had Shepherds before, like they don’t necessarily need to do a puppy class. They already take them everywhere.
They do what they need to do. You know, they know how to do things. So it just really depends on what the person’s looking for to.
Julie Swan | 24:13
What they’re ultimately getting the dog for.
Courtney Guthrie | 24:14
Right. I really have to say, and it’s probably not fair in some ways, but I am a little harder on people with kids. I feel a little bit more strongly about, if you have kids, no, you really need to be doing your due diligence that that dog is safe with kids.
Like you really do. Because dogs are dogs and kids are kids. And you don’t need a dog that you have to manage around kids.
I have a daughter, and there’s not a dog at my house that I am worried about biting her.
Julie Swan | 24:53
Right.
Courtney Guthrie | 24:54
Like they might bite each other, but they would never bite her, you know?
Julie Swan | 25:00
Right. You’ve put the time in with them to create that predictability.
Courtney Guthrie | 25:04
Right. And that’s super important. You know, these dogs are powerful. And I think we, as people need to respect that, I think we get too, too cuddly fur-mommy-ish sometimes with these bigger, more powerful breeds.
And we forget that a little bit, and we don’t respect them for what they are. And it’s not that they’re dangerous. It’s that we need to give them the respect that they also deserve.
Julie Swan | 25:39
Sure. It’s like a guidance, you’re setting a standard. I think one of the things that I struggle with on some of the peer-positive training ideas is that you’re not teaching what’s not acceptable. It doesn’t mean that you’re beating the dog for doing something that you don’t want, right.
But you are saying, Hey, that’s not cool. I would like you to do this instead. And even if that’s just a sound, and uhuh, or something just so they’re aware, this is not an okay behavior.
I do find that’s good parenting with my kids too. Like if my son starts lighting fires in my kitchen. I’m going to have to say, Hey, you know, Hunter, we can’t do that.
You know, we need to.
Courtney Guthrie | 26:19
Right. Right.
Julie Swan | 26:22
And I think a lot of those dogs, like Shepherds, they’re intelligent. They figured out my latches a lot faster than my Shorthairs. I’ll just put it that way.
Courtney Guthrie | 26:36
Right. Ted literally opens our doors. Like Ted opens our doors. He opens our doors, lets himself in and out. Like, yeah, they are extremely smart. And you have to put in the time, you got to put in the time, and it’s a lot more time than what people think it is.
Julie Swan | 26:50
Can you give us an estimate on what that kind of would be the first, maybe six months having the dog?
Courtney Guthrie | 27:18
If you’re raising a puppy for working, working puppies. I recently outlined for someone that a working puppy, it takes a lot of time. When you get up in the morning, it’s not, you can get your cup of coffee. You throw the dog in the yard.
No, you get up, you take that puppy out on the leash. So it’s learning to potty on the leash. It’s pottying on command, because it’s a working puppy.
You’re going to trial it. It’s going to a trial. It’s going to travel.
You’re doing a lot with it then. So you’re getting up, you’re taking it out on leash, then you’re going back in, you’re going to feed it, but you’re not just going to feed it in a bowl, or putting it in its crate. You’re going to feed it by hand, luring obedience.
So that’s five, 10 minutes.
Julie Swan | 28:11
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 28:12
Then you’re going to take it back outside so it can go potty. If you’re lucky enough to have a kennel run, you’ll put it in the kennel run. They can spend some time out there and then you’ll go inside for a little while.
You know, but it adds up, for a working puppy, if you do it right, in my opinion, you’re looking at three to four hours a day, solid, you know?
Julie Swan | 28:40
And that’s just like, but it’s with you, right?
Courtney Guthrie | 28:42
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 28:43
It’s not that I’m dedicating staring at the dog for three to four hours.
Courtney Guthrie | 28:46
It’s broke up throughout the day.
Julie Swan | 28:48
It’s here, it’s here.
And so it’s like maybe 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, but it is all day. And I definitely see that.
Do you find that that in addition to the feeding by hand, do you find that’s also bond building, they kind of start to pay attention to a lot more?
Courtney Guthrie | 29:06
Yes. That’s where you build your focus and too many people, they don’t do that, and you can tell in their obedience, and I can pick it out immediately. I can tell exactly who has done it and who didn’t do it.
Because they don’t have the focus. The puppy doesn’t have the focus.
Julie Swan | 29:29
On the trainer?
Courtney Guthrie | 29:30
Yes. So you can tell immediately, the focus is all over. Whereas, if you’ve been doing it, the puppy’s focus is a lot more on the trainer, because all good things come from the trainer.
Julie Swan | 29:45
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 29:45
That puppy has learned, oh, good things come from you. They don’t come from over here. They come from you.
Julie Swan | 29:53
Yeah. So that makes sense, building that relationship.
Courtney Guthrie | 29:55
Yeah. It’s a big difference.
Julie Swan | 29:57
Yeah, absolutely.
Courtney Guthrie | 30:00
And that’s where you get, if you’re building a working dog, that’s where you get that extreme focus that you see in the really focused heels and that kind of thing.
Julie Swan | 30:10
But anybody with a dog could use this to build that bond and just get that attention.
Courtney Guthrie | 30:15
Absolutely, absolutely. My, the pet puppies that I send home for families, I recommend that the families hand feed their puppies and that they go in a circle. Each member of the family feeds them.
Julie Swan | 30:34
Oh, like each day you alternate?
Courtney Guthrie | 30:36
No, every person. In the morning and at night, or at night if morning is too hectic and chaotic because of work and school, you know, at night, do it just once a day.
Everybody in the house, you know, go in a circle. They each feed a handful out of that bowl. It helps build the bond with the puppy.
Julie Swan | 30:59
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
I did that just recently with an older puppy that I had returned to me, and now I have my sliding glass door, and the dogs are outside and they can look at me, and he just stares at me all day. He’s all like, hi, when are we hanging out again?
You know, it’s really interesting how much more focus I got from him just doing that for two or three days.
Courtney Guthrie | 31:24
It doesn’t take much, and that’s why I tell my puppy people, I’m like, just do that a few days and they’ll, you know, follow you. I’m not a breeder that tells parents like, make sure you keep your puppy and your kids separate.
And, you know, that kind of thing, I’m like, yeah, give the puppy a break, make sure that they have downtime, whatever. I’m like, no, put that puppy on a leash and let the kids drag it all over. That’s what my kid does.
Like they’re usually leash broke by the time they leave, because my kids drug it all over the yard. I mean, she has, that’s real. And I think that that’s something that breeders aren’t, I feel like breeders hide stuff so much, especially in Shepherds.
And I don’t know why.
Julie Swan | 32:22
Yeah, I see so many breeders are overwhelmed and they’re always feel like they’re failing in something.
Courtney Guthrie | 32:23
Yeah, and so they’re just not open.
Julie Swan | 32:25
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 32:25
Yeah. They’re just not open.
And it’s like, no, my kid drags these puppies all over the yard. Like they run all over, and I tell them, just let them drag them all over. If the kids are outside, kick that puppy outside with the kids, like let them, it’s okay.
Julie Swan | 32:46
I think you get to that place where you can tell when the puppy’s over tired, and you can take a break. Fine. But I agree with you.
The kids are such that general, let’s have fun. Let’s wear you out. Let’s learn new things.
Courtney Guthrie | 33:04
Honestly, I think puppies raised by kids are so much more robust, honestly. My litters raised by Bren are so much, like they’re so much heartier and confident. I mean, my gosh, these puppies are, they’re fearless, because they’ve been put down a pirate slide, at like five weeks old.
I mean, they’ve been swinging at six. Like it’s just, they’ve had kids stuff done to them. It’s great.
Julie Swan | 33:42
Yeah. You guys should meet Bren. She is the coolest kid.
I’m like – I’ll take her anytime.
Courtney Guthrie | 33:49
She’s wild. She wants to own a cheetah.
Julie Swan | 33:52
That’s great. Yeah, that makes sense. And now too, it’s interesting because we were talking a little bit about the culture, and how all breeds have their own breed culture.
And tell us a little bit too, because I noticed, I find in working with breeders of all breeds, that German Shepherd culture is kind of one of the toughest. Poodles in show world can be really rough, but German Shepherds are right there, if not worse. Can you tell us a little bit where that comes from or what that’s like?
Courtney Guthrie | 34:28
It is rough. It is. It’s rough.
Shepherd people are some of the quickest to turn on their own. They’re some of the most vicious, mean people you will meet. They can be really horrible. But on the flip side, they can be some of the most kind, giving, amazing people you will meet too.
I think it comes from, you’re taking people, especially when you’re looking at working line Shepherds. Working line Shepherds, specifically, you’re taking these highly driven dogs, which attract these highly driven competitive people. Competitive people usually have an ego, whether it’s a little bit or a lot, but an ego in some way.
You put them all in one circle. Then we’re all supposed to get along.
Julie Swan | 35:52
That’s true.
They wouldn’t all get along under one roof at a dinner table, generally. So that makes sense.
Courtney Guthrie | 35:57
No, they definitely don’t.
There’s definitely accounts of not getting along under one roof. Organizations don’t get along. There’s whole organizations that don’t get along, not even just infighting within one organization.
There’s literal organizations within the breed that don’t get along. It’s really sad when you really look at it. That’s just within the working lines.
Then you add in the West German show line, and the American show lines. Nobody gets along within it. There’s toxicity within every single breed community within the Shepherds.
It’s really disappointing, but just as much as the toxicity exists, I think you do find there’s a huge group in each section of the Shepherd. There is a huge group of really great people. I just think that those people have been more silenced, in more recent years, because the other people are louder on social media.
Julie Swan | 37:33
Okay, that makes sense. Keyboard warriors, yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 37:37
I think that it becomes a problem.
Julie Swan | 37:43
You’ve found that maybe the newer model of things and communication and that, has actually been a detriment to the breed, it’s a little bit less more intense.
Courtney Guthrie | 37:50
I think it’s definitely been a detriment to the breed. I think it’s been a detriment to the dog community as a whole, honestly.
Yeah, I do. It’s kind of sad. I’m hoping to see a change.
I think that there will be a change. It’ll be interesting. I hope that there is one soon.
Julie Swan | 38:22
I’m seeing this newer generation is, to me, I think, like our kids. I’ll put it that way. Our kids are starting to come back in a different way. Like the kids that are 18, 20 now seem to have almost be a throwback to a little bit less social media driven, in a way that I feel like the generation between maybe the Millennials.
I know I’m on the line, I’m technically a Gen X, but I think in that window, I’ve just seen that they got really kind of delicate for a while.
Courtney Guthrie | 39:00
Yeah, I think you’re right.
I think from the teenagers down, I think it’ll be a whole different generation than what we have from the teenagers to like the 30-ish year olds. That generation, I think it’ll be an interesting ride with them.
Julie Swan | 39:23
And there’s a ton of breeders, just to put it out there because people will be listening and be like, Julie, what do you mean?
But it’s like, I meet incredible breeders in the 20 to 30 range all the time. There’s tons of amazing people in there, and they’re super savvy on websites and social media. And so they’re making a killing, doing that.
Courtney Guthrie | 39:42
There’s amazing people in all. There’s no absolute in anything.
Julie Swan | 39:47
There’s just this group though that you have found.
It’s like a subsector of it. And they have been a little bit more delicate, and they’re a little bit more prone to be reactive publicly, in a way that maybe wasn’t acceptable in the previous generation. And I’m not seeing it as much in the newest generation.
Courtney Guthrie | 40:01
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think that they exist a little bit more in Shepherds for whatever reason, but if you think about it, Shepherds tend to be more reactive.
So it would make sense that they attract a little more reactive person. People kind of are like their dogs, if you really think about it. I really believe that like people are going to be like, oh, you’re weird.
I really feel that people really represent the breeds that they own in some way.
Julie Swan | 40:38
Do you remember that cartoon 101 Dalmatians? You remember the first scene when like Pongo staring out the window and he sees all these women walking their dogs and they all look identical to their dogs.
And I thought that was a funny joke because it is. It’s very true.
Courtney Guthrie | 40:53
It’s really true.
It really is true. I really do feel that way. And if you really watch, honestly, if you think about it, usually Shepherd owners are kind of like, we’re not usually like real laid back kind of people.
I mean, sorry, Shepherd owners. I love you all. But I mean, come on.
Yeah, I’m sure there are some out there.
Julie Swan | 41:25
Right.
Courtney Guthrie | 41:26
I’m laid back. I’m sure you are. But I’m laid back too sometimes.
But as a rule, you know.
Julie Swan | 41:35
Right. There’s a little bit more fire in there.
Courtney Guthrie | 41:37
Yeah, there’s just, you know, there’s just a little bit. Exactly. There’s just a little bit more fight in there than others.
Like, I really feel like that, though.
Julie Swan | 41:48
It makes sense. And I think that is one thing to think about, you know, for new breeders looking at picking a breed, or for breeders narrowing down their ideal puppy buyer, to be in a more specific section of demographic.
You can see, because you have your pet people, and you have your working dog people, and they’re very different, right?
Courtney Guthrie | 42:06
Extremely different. You have to really decide if you can handle dealing with that type of person, for the life of that dog.
Julie Swan | 42:21
Exactly. Yeah, I do find that it is a little bit more.
I notice that a lot of times, I’ll have the same situation happen, they’ll be confused about something, and they’ll want to blame us as breeders. Right. But the way I get blamed is definitely different than the way you get blamed.
And we did the same thing, and the same thing happened. It’s just the personality of the people, and I totally get it because the GSP people are kind of like, yeah, whatever. Like, yeah, they’re pretty much that way.
Courtney Guthrie | 42:53
Yeah. Like with you have a dog that doesn’t pass a hip. Like, oh, my gosh, it’s my fault.
It’s like both parents had passing hips. I’m really sorry. Like, it’s genetics.
I can give you a new puppy out of a different litter. I don’t know what to tell you, you know.
Julie Swan | 43:15
And sometimes there are so many things, too, that, I’ve seen with Shepard, maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong.
I’ve seen with Shepherds that the environment seems to be a lot more of an effect on Shepherds. Like, you could keep a dog in shape on the right food and do things, and they won’t have problems.
Courtney Guthrie | 43:38
Yeah, I really agree with that because I will be absolutely 100 percent open.
Ted has bad hips. Ted has bad hips. Ted had an oops litter, which I know you know Geary from.
Julie Swan | 44:01
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 44:02
But Ted will jump a six foot kennel from a sit. Literally, from a sit, like he springs over a six foot kennel from a sit.
Julie Swan | 44:20
And he doesn’t have any physical problems apart from the test.
Courtney Guthrie | 44:24
He does not limp. He runs the whole property, which is three acres fenced. He does not ever take a lame step unless he has a goat head in his foot, he is in absolute amazing shape.
Julie Swan | 44:43
But it’s just his testing score that didn’t come back nice.
Courtney Guthrie | 44:47
Yeah. I mean, I didn’t send them in they’re bad enough.
But, you know, now, is that because by the time I did his hips, like his hip x rays, that dog had been jumping fences for three years. You know, is it that? I don’t know.
He did have an oops litter. Which obviously it was an oops litter. It wasn’t planned.
Everyone would have. I didn’t keep a puppy from that litter. I wish I would have.
I got one back that I had in a co-own. I have that co-own. And I bred her this last summer.
So I have one. I have a puppy from her. But I didn’t keep one from that litter at my house.
But I tested her. So I did her hips. And I did another puppy out of the litter’s hips.
And they both came back good. And then the two males out of that litter came back good. And so I went ahead and bred the female that I have in a co-own.
I bred her this last summer. So a lot of breeders wouldn’t have bred her. And I know this, and I’ll probably get so much hate for this online, it’s not even gonna be funny, but that’s okay.
But what that pedigree brought to my program is worth so much more than throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Julie Swan | 46:41
I kind of agree with the temperament with Ted. He’s such a gem.
Courtney Guthrie | 46:46
Yeah, he really is.
Julie Swan | 46:48
I know that you’re were really good with training him. But I just feel like he’s cut from a different thing.
Like he’s just incredible. And I just it feels wrong to just be like, Oh, these are borderline. And this is just gone, this whole bloodline dead.
And I don’t know that we, I guess one thing that’s been brewing over the last few years, as I’ve been working with so many breeders, is how many breeds just get genetically cut off, because borderline hips or hips that test poorly, but don’t seem to functionally affect the dog.
Courtney Guthrie | 47:26
Yeah, and we can cut our off our nose to spite our face a lot of times. So like I said, the mom, so Ted’s daughter tested good.
Her hips came back good. PennHIPs good. So yeah.
And then the puppy that I have, that I kept back from that litter will be tested. And then the sire I used was PennHIP too. And hopefully, the puppy from them will hopefully, cross my fingers, be good.
But I think that by not testing Ted’s daughter, and using her, just because Ted had bad hips, I think that I would have been doing a disservice. Because not only was everyone that got a puppy from that oops litter, super happy with their dogs. Like, I haven’t said a lot about that litter, but literally, my co-own, even though that relationship is not copacetic at the moment.
She is an absolutely wonderful home. And they absolutely adore her. She is an amazing dog.
And she’s in a great place. Geary is doing great. And she’s everything that he had asked for, the other male is actually a working dog in Illinois, the whole litter is just doing so well.
Julie Swan | 49:39
Right. And they’re old enough now because they’re what, two, three years old, that you would know if there were problems, and they just haven’t had any.
Courtney Guthrie | 49:47
Yeah, there’ll be three in February.
And they’re just really fantastic. They’re just really fantastic dogs, all of them. And I really liked the puppies that I have from that female, I really like the temperaments of the puppies I got.
And I’m really glad that I did it. A lot of people were questioning why I bred her because Ted had bad hips. And well, he’s her dad.
And there’s the possibility. And the thing is, is I could breed two excellent rated dogs together and get two dysplastic dogs. So, you know, there’s that possibility.
Julie Swan | 50:43
I see that. I see that same story in Goldens. I see that story in Shepherds.
I see that story in a couple breeds, where the testing is not as indicative of the result as it is with other breeds.
Courtney Guthrie | 50:59
Yeah, it happens. So, I’m very glad that I did it.
I’m very glad that I did it. And I’m really pleased with the outcome. Like I said, I’ll probably get a lot of hate for it and I’m okay with that.
I’m really happy with where I’m at in my breeding, in my program with what I’m doing, like where I’m headed towards, like with the temperaments that I’m getting in my dogs. My goal has always been a really versatile Shepherd that can be a family dog, but also go and work. And I think that every dog I have at my house that’s a Shepherd can do both, every single dog.
Julie Swan | 51:42
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 51:42
And, you know, I think that that’s not only a testament to those dogs breeding, but, you know, a testament to their training and them, like they’re awesome.
Julie Swan | 51:55
You’re getting what you put out to get, like you really are.
Courtney Guthrie | 52:00
Yeah. I feel like I’m right there, like where I want to be. So I’m happy with where I’m at with the Shepherds for sure.
Julie Swan | 52:07
Yeah. That makes so much sense. And we only have a little bit of time left, but you had told me that you had some good co-owns and some bad co-owns.
Could you share a little bit of those experiences and what you learned, what you would do different moving forward?
Courtney Guthrie | 52:24
Yeah. I’ve always been a big proponent of co-owns, because I really feel like a good co-own can really help a breeder.
Julie Swan | 52:36
How do you, how do you run a co-own? What does that look like for you?
Courtney Guthrie | 52:39
So I do mine a little different than most breeders.
With a co-own for me, I give the co-owner the dog. There’s no money exchanged. I will give them the dog.
Depends on what we decide on beforehand, either we split a couple litters, or you give me a few puppies, depending on what I want. You know, it depends on what I’m looking for out of that particular dog or bloodline.
Julie Swan | 53:12
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 53:13
So it really depends on the pedigree for me. If I’m looking to really retain a lot out of a certain pedigree, and hold back a lot, then I might split litters.
If I’m looking to just like, maybe just hold back one or two for myself, then I might just want like a couple puppies out of like a couple litters, like the first two litters or something. And then that’s really it. Then I sign the dog over and then I’m done.
Julie Swan | 53:47
Yeah. That’s easy.
Courtney Guthrie | 53:49
Yeah. It really lets me just keep.
Julie Swan | 53:51
They’re not really vested in the outcome of the breeding. Right. So in a way it’s kind of like a guardian home.
Courtney Guthrie | 53:58
Depending. Usually I try and give my co-owns to sport homes.
Julie Swan | 54:04
Oh, okay. So they are invested in that.
Courtney Guthrie | 54:07
Yeah, usually I try and give my co-owns to other sport homes that are going to title the dog, or do something that’s going to add to the puppy’s value, or something like that. So I’ll get kind of some return, in return for giving them the puppy for free kind of thing. So there’s, there’s kind of, I get kind of a return more than just the puppies.
Yeah. It’s just a little bit different. So usually I try and find a sport home for something like that.
Or one of my friends, if I really want to keep a puppy close, and make sure I’m going to be able to access that pedigree in the future. Contracts are enforceable, but you also have to have the ability to pay a lawyer, to go through the court fees, to go through the court costs to enforce that contract. So when you do a co-own, you have to keep that in mind.
Julie Swan | 55:16
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 55:17
So always keep that in mind, in the back of your head, when you go into a co-own, am I going to want to go to court, enforce this contract if this goes south?
Julie Swan | 55:28
Yeah, that makes sense, and I’ve always thought, that if they were a dog you have to have, I feel like they have to be under your roof. So you have to have this dog, you need to keep it.
But if it would be nice to have, that to me feels like where you can use co-owns.
Courtney Guthrie | 55:44
I agree with that to a point, like before I would have said, like, oh, no, you could. But recently, I had purchased a dog for a large amount of money, a started dog. And she already had her health testing done, hips, a breeding title done.
She was well started in bite work, obedience, pretty much bring her over, spend six weeks, then go title her kind of thing. And she was bred when I picked her up, she was Salty’s mom. And I whelped her and I didn’t feel I had the time to title her.
And I placed her in a co-own, because they were, they were going to have more time. And life happens. And they just didn’t end up having the time that they were supposed to.
And so I ended up having to get her back, and ended up, you know, needing to find her a different situation anyway, because I still don’t have the time anyway. So it’s, you know, there’s a little more to it. There’s, you know, that kind of thing.
And it didn’t sour me on co-owns. But I think that I will a little more selective about, like you said, if I have to have this for my program, then I will need to keep it under my roof.
Julie Swan | 58:03
Yeah, or maybe a more strict assessment of their situation and ability to perform.
Courtney Guthrie | 58:10
Yeah. Yeah. Or a longer time period watching the situation before placement or something to, you know, something like that.
Julie Swan | 58:21
I have noticed that people are, oh, we got all the time in the world. And then two things change. And all of a sudden they have no time.
Courtney Guthrie | 58:27
Yeah. Or they get in and they start to realize how much work the training actually is. And they get overwhelmed.
And then it’s like, oh, okay.
Julie Swan | 58:40
Yeah. How does it work with paying for training?
Do they pay because they got the dog for free?
Courtney Guthrie | 58:46
So, in this case, they just pay their Club dues.
Julie Swan | 58:51
Okay.
Courtney Guthrie | 58:52
And then they work her under their Club dues. But, in this case, all the vet care, all the vet records and all that kind of stuff goes under me. Got it.
Julie Swan | 59:05
Okay. They do vary a bit. So that makes sense.
I think sometimes that personal approach is nice anyway.
Courtney Guthrie | 59:11
Yeah. And it depends.
Even having a bad experience, having to take one back, it’s never fun. It’s not fun on either end. I never want to make someone unhappy.
You know, I never want to make someone sad, that kind of thing. I have so many other good co-owns, you know, successful. And unfortunately, they also have the mom to the litter that I did this summer.
And I stupidly didn’t do a contract because they were, we were supposed to be friends.
Julie Swan | 59:52
We’ve all done it.
Courtney Guthrie | 59:57
This is a lesson guys, just because they’re friends, always do contracts.
Courtney Guthrie | 1:00:00
And so I, unfortunately will have lost the ability to do another breeding or anything like that in the future. And that’s a pedigree that I really wanted to have in my kennel and I won’t, which is okay. Everything happens for a reason and everything’s meant to be the way it is for a reason.
I have many more good co-owns, than I do failed.
Julie Swan | 1:00:36
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 1:00:37
And even though I have that recently failed co-own, I sent my pick of the litter female from my black and tan litter that I had over the summer, actually out to my friend in Iowa, just a month ago to co-own.
Her son’s going to use her for FFA, for his FFA dog.
Julie Swan | 1:01:03
Oh, that’ll be fun.
Courtney Guthrie | 1:01:04
Yeah.
And so it’s pretty exciting and it’s, she has a great home and it’s a good thing.
Julie Swan | 1:01:18
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 1:01:18
For every bad one, there’s always going to be a good one too.
And I could say, yeah, there’s going to be bad ones, and I’m never going to do another co-own again because, oh, this happened. But I think that I would be cutting my nose off to spite my face because, you know, I’ve had a lot of people give me a chance, and even some people give me a chance when I maybe didn’t deserve it. And I think that had I not had that happen, I wouldn’t be where I was.
So I don’t want to deny someone that in the future.
Julie Swan | 1:02:01
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 1:02:01
And I think that’s probably why I will keep doing co-owns.
Julie Swan | 1:02:04
Yeah. It just keeps the door open, right?
Courtney Guthrie | 1:02:06
Yeah.
That’s the only way people are going to learn and grow.
Julie Swan | 1:02:09
Yeah. Any advice for new breeders starting out? Anything?
Courtney Guthrie | 1:02:14
Just keep learning and be open. You got to be open to everything.
Julie Swan | 1:02:19
Yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 1:02:20
Don’t get stuck.
Julie Swan | 1:02:21
Yeah. So something’s not working. Look for an alternative.
Don’t just, yeah.
Courtney Guthrie | 1:02:25
Don’t get stuck. There’s a million ways out there. Don’t get stuck.
If something’s not working, don’t try and force it just because someone said, oh, this is going to work. Like just because it worked for them doesn’t mean it’s going to work for you. Find your own way. Don’t be scared.
Julie Swan | 1:02:46
That’s good. No, I agree with you completely. Yeah.
No breeding program is the same, like ever. So find a way that makes it work. There’s a lot of different ways, but find what works for you.
Courtney Guthrie | 1:02:56
Yeah.
Julie Swan | 1:02:58
Courtney, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It’s been a pleasure.
Courtney Guthrie | 1:03:02
Thank you.
