12 Days of Breeders – #7 – Jessica Harris of Missouri Dalmatians

The 12 Days of Breeders is a series of interviews conducted with members of the Dog Breeder Society who are doing innovative, creative, and inspiring things in their dog breeding business.  In each of these interviews we cover challenges each breeder has encountered, and how they’ve overcome those challenges to find success in their breeding program.  Join me for all twelve of these interviews for inspiration, and countless actionable tips you can use to overcome (or avoid) challenges in your own dog breeding program!  You can check out all of the interviews in this series here.

Jessica Harris and Missouri Dalmatians

Jessica went from being fired from the Humane Society to being on Fire with her Dalmatian breeding program. You’ll get to hear her incredible stories as an animal control officer and then hear what it was like working for the Humane Society where she was eventually fired.

She has built an incredible breeding program and it’s changed her life–especially as a mom who gets to spend more time with her kids and do more with them because of the lifestyle breeding provides. You’ll love learning about her breeding program, her thoughts on studying genetics to create the dogs you really want, and her thoughts on working with other breeders. 

Learn more about Jessica and Missouri Dalmatians

Check out Jessica’s dogs – including the first long coat sable in the breed on Instagram!

Transcript

Julie Swan | 0:24

You guys are in for a treat today. Today we have Jessica Harris of Missouri Dalmatians. Jessica, you’ve been breeding since 2019, and I love this, you went from getting fired from the Humane Society to being on fire with your dog breeding program.

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Jessica Harris | 0:43

Thank you for having me. I’m very excited to share my story with you.

Julie Swan | 0:48

Thanks. It’s such a good story. All right, so starting out, you loved animals, and this led you early on to getting a job with Animal Control, right?

Not the Humane Society yet, this was Animal Control?

Jessica Harris | 1:01

That’s correct. So I started in February of 2011 with Animal Control in my hometown. I did that for about three years.

I really enjoyed doing that because you could see people who truly meant well for their dogs, but they just needed a little bit of guidance. We didn’t have a lot of animal issues in my hometown, but just some guidance is all they needed, and it was actually pretty free-flowing and very easy to maintain. It was a wonderful job.

Julie Swan | 1:31

When you said that you, I think a lot of people, when we hear Animal Control, like I know I cringe when Animal Control is called, right? Because that just, as a breeder, makes me nervous. I’m always afraid one of my idiot dogs will have dumped a water bowl over, and now I’m in trouble.

Could you describe a little bit of the job as an Animal Control officer? Because I always feel like it’s just tickets and somebody who hates me, but that’s not really the case.

Jessica Harris | 1:57

Right, right. So we were referred to a lot as the dog catcher. We got a lot of dog calls of dogs running at large, and so we would have to catch dogs that were running loose.

If it was a frequent flyer, you knew who it belonged to, and most of the time I’d let them off the hook and be like, hey, your dog’s out. You need to fix that hole again, or find a different fence. So I tried to have a very good rapport with these people because they were frequent flyers and you just knew who they were.

Other people, if their dogs were, say, thin, people would call, neighbors would call in and say their dogs were thin, so you could give them an education. They needed to either change food, take their dog to a vet, or give them more food.

Julie Swan | 2:37

Yeah, that makes sense. And so you were looking actually to help solve the problem. It wasn’t just like, ticket, you’re a bad person.

Jessica Harris | 2:44

Right, right. So I mean, as long as they were very good and willing to learn, you absolutely would work with those people. You had other people who just were jerks and there was no other way to get through to them but to write them a ticket, but to me that was a last resort.

Education goes a long way, and Animal Control is all about educating the owner, because otherwise if you take that dog, what are they going to do? They’re going to get another one and they’re going to treat it poorly too. So education was a huge, huge part of my job.

I loved it.

Julie Swan | 3:12

That makes sense. Was that pitch to you like in training or was this just kind of your own philosophy?

Jessica Harris | 3:18

I had a wonderful trainer. I don’t recall how long she was doing it, but it was kind of my philosophy as time went on. You kind of learned what your niche was into it, and mine was education.

I thought educating them was better than seizing the animal.

Julie Swan | 3:33

Makes a lot of sense. It just creates problems somewhere else, right?

Jessica Harris | 3:36

Right, right. It would turn into somebody else’s problem.

Julie Swan | 3:39

And so Animal Control is like a municipality paid position usually, or county paid position. But then you got married. Can you tell us a little bit what happened there?

Jessica Harris | 3:50

Yeah, so I got lucky enough to get married to a cop, and I forfeited my job for him. Looking back, I don’t recommend that. Since then we have gotten divorced.

But before that happened, before we got divorced, I seeked out another animal job because I really love the education side, and the investigation side. So I was very fortunate enough to get hired by the Humane Society, and I started there in, I believe it was February of 2015.

Julie Swan | 4:24

Okay, so you were in Animal Control for a few years and then you moved in to the Humane Society.

Jessica Harris | 4:28

Yes, so then I was hired as a statewide animal cruelty investigator where I covered about 30 counties of the state.

Julie Swan | 4:36

Wow, that’s a lot of traveling.

Jessica Harris | 4:38

Yeah, I traveled a ton.

Julie Swan | 4:41

So tell us a little bit about working for the Humane Society. I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding. I think a lot of people actually think the Humane Society and Animal Control are synonymous.

They don’t understand they’re very different. One is publicly funded and another one is a non-profit, right?

Jessica Harris | 5:00

So this one worked a little differently than most Humane Societies. So we actually had 10 investigators that covered the entire state. Five covered a very large city and five of us covered the state.

So we would do the investigation side and seize animals with law enforcement, for very specific reasons that we could possibly touch into later. But they also had a very large scale ranch where they would house your large animal and livestock, and then they also had very large facilities to house your small animals. So they covered everything from surgeries all the way up to adopting out. It was huge.

Julie Swan | 5:38

Wow, so this is a giant operation. And so the Humane Society can’t seize animals correct? But it could work with surrendered animals, and it could work with animals picked up from an animal control. Is that right?

Jessica Harris | 5:51

So yes, as far as being an animal cruelty investigator for the Humane Society, you cannot go steal somebody’s animal. That’d be theft. That is a felony in Missouri.

So they either had to sign over their rights for the animal, or you had to work with the local sheriff’s office and then you would have to get a warrant. But you would have to have proof of why you were seizing these animals. You can’t just go steal their animals, and they were very big on that.

Julie Swan | 6:16

Yeah, that makes sense. So when you’re going on to someone’s property, so would, well, would people call? I know people can call for animal control but would people call the Humane Society and make a complaint instead?

Like is that just an alternative option kind of?

Jessica Harris | 6:29

Correct. So we had a hotline that they could call any time of day, leave a message or they could call and talk to our office people, and they would take the complaint and then we would receive it via our computers at home, and then we would just plan on our day according to the complaints or that’s at least how I did it. So I would drive anywhere from 10 minutes from my house to three or four hours one way from my house to go check on a dog, to see if they had a dog house or if they were skinny, you know, horses had hooves that were three feet too long and yes, I saw that.

I saw about everything under the sun that you could absolutely imagine.

Julie Swan | 7:04

Wow, okay. So you’re going up to someone’s house. So do you just start talking to people then following through on complaints?

Jessica Harris | 7:12

Yeah, so if they’re home, you go up and knock on the door, and you have no means of protection. You just your sparkling personality and your clipboard and your pen, and you walk up and knock on their door and honest to god hope they don’t shoot you. That has happened. And you make that conversation with them, and you learn to be very good and quick on your feet when you’re talking to people, because we didn’t go to your average Joes.

We went to some really, really rough houses in the middle of absolutely nowhere, and you talk your way through it. You explain to them why you’re there and who you are and ask if you can see your animals. 99% of the time they would say yes.

Sometimes they would say no and you can leave.

Julie Swan | 7:56

You had to leave, right? Like you didn’t have a right?

Jessica Harris | 7:58

Yes, so I had no lawful rights to be there. So you would leave, and then I would, depending on what my gut told me, I would contact the sheriff’s department, see if they had any issues with this address, and then it would kind of go from there. Like can I see the horses or the dogs or whatever animal is being complained on from a different view, a public view, like from a different gravel road or from the neighbor’s property.

I’d go to the neighbor’s property, knock on their door, hey can I use your property? As long as I wasn’t crossing property lines, you know, that’s legal. So you found ways to get around, get off my property.

Julie Swan | 8:32

Got it. I can see why it is a sticky thing for people too because you’re in there to try to follow up, and at the same time, you know, it does feel kind of slimy when you’re in the neighbor’s yard because they gave you permission.

Jessica Harris | 8:45

Right, right. You just really learned to talk. Most of the time after you’ve done it for a while, you could pretty much talk your way onto the property but I still had to mind the law.

I mean I couldn’t break the law to do it.

Julie Swan | 8:55

That makes sense, and that’s different from animal control, right? Animal control usually has a right to go on regardless.

Jessica Harris | 9:01

Oh yeah, I had a lot more rights there, and I had a very good working relationship with that police department, who I worked hand in hand with. I worked right in the same shift with the police department, which they do it now, it’s very different. But at the time when I worked there, I was just like an officer.

Julie Swan | 9:17

Okay, that’s very cool. Okay, so what did you see working in the Humane Society? What were some of the craziest things?

Jessica Harris | 9:28

So my absolute worst call that will never ever leave my mind, about eight miles from my home, there was over a hundred dead dogs in a house. I had never, ever, ever experienced anything like that. I don’t wish it upon anybody. She actually let us in the house.

We found her and explained our reasoning for being there, and she was what you would call a rescue. She rescued all of these dogs. They were in various stages of decay.

They were all deceased except for one.

Julie Swan | 10:02

All of these dogs were deceased but one?

Jessica Harris | 10:04

One cat.

Julie Swan | 10:05

One cat.

Jessica Harris | 10:07

Yeah, one cat, and it was in a cage.

Julie Swan | 10:11

The cat was in a cage?

Jessica Harris | 10:13

Yes, all the dogs were in your wire crates like about those 36 inch crates.

They were stacked on top of each other, two and three cages high down the whole side of the living room. You could go down the hall in another room and in a u-shape completely full of cages and dead dogs. The whole house was set up like this.

She also had a detached building that also had three rows of triple stacked cages of all deceased dogs. I’ve never experienced anything like that, but this is what is referred to sometimes as a rescue, so you have to be very, very careful about who you’re releasing ownership of your animal to.

Julie Swan | 10:53

Yeah, was there a reason? Did she, was she ever able to explain what had happened?

Jessica Harris | 10:59

She claimed many different things of what it was. It didn’t add up. We had a licensed veterinarian on our team and we had to go in and number every single deceased animal. And we inventoried them, and we examined everything that we could, and so she built a case off of that.

Julie Swan | 11:23

Yeah, and do you remember any of it like what they concluded?

Jessica Harris | 11:28

I can’t say a hundred percent but it appears some of it was starvation. It’s been a couple of years since that case has been fresh in my mind so I don’t want to lead anybody wrong, but various stages of decay so I would lead to believe that a lot of it was starvation. She claimed it was disease and I just don’t buy that.

Julie Swan | 11:49

Yeah, I mean usually if it was like parvo or something there would be considerable evidence surrounding that.

Jessica Harris | 11:54

Right, right, right. So most of these were all adult dogs. So yeah, it was very, it was very interesting.

Absolute worst, worst case I’ve ever had to deal with, and we did go to court for that.

Julie Swan | 12:07

Yeah, that’s awful and I think there is this never talked about side of the rescue world, fostering, where you have dogs that are more or less, they’re very difficult to home, whether they have training problems, whether they have aggression problems, which are usually fear-based anyway, where they have all these pieces and yet, you know, there’s, we don’t want to put them down. So we end up just kind of leaving them and managing them, and I think when you have that many dogs it’s just, it’s near impossible to give them the quality of life they need.

Jessica Harris | 12:48

Right, right. I think it just is super important to make sure you know who you’re giving them to. As far as the rescue.

I do have a positive case that really hit home to me. I don’t exactly remember what the complaint was, but it led me to a farm in Missouri, very southern Missouri, in the middle of absolutely nowhere. I actually took another investigator with me because it was such a large-scale operation.

Sometimes you don’t know what you’re getting involved in, so sometimes you would ask for a backup to go with you. Because like I said, all you have is your sparkling personality, and a clipboard and a pen, so sometimes backup is good. So I get the other investigator and we went down to this home. A very, very beautiful farm.

I made contact with a lady there, and she was more than willing to show me her facility. She had well over 180 breeding dogs and it was absolutely gorgeous. I’d have ate off the floor in some of her buildings.

That’s how clean it was. She had it going on. I mean it was absolutely beautiful.

I’ve never seen anything like it. All the dogs were happy, friendly. The place was clean.

You would not believe how beautiful it was for that amount of dogs. My first question to her after I’d went through and I was just in awe shock of how gorgeous it was, because that’s not what I’ve seen every day. She said I did it because I was losing my farm.

She said it’s changed my life and they saved my farm. It was a wonderful experience. What I really got to see at the Humane Society is sometimes you got to see people who actually did a really good job.

Sometimes maybe a customer got a puppy from them and they were just mad. So who do you call? You call the Humane Society to try to get them in trouble, and it didn’t go that way.

Then the other side you see awful things that is legit. But, it wasn’t always that.

Julie Swan | 14:48

That was pretty neat. Was that the first time you’d ever seen anything like that?

Jessica Harris | 14:52

That size, absolutely. I was shocked.

Julie Swan | 14:56

I think that’s incredible just to see everything, to see an operation that big.

Jessica Harris | 15:01

It was just to see her whelping area, her puppies, where her adults were. It was a huge operation, and I just was so shocked of how clean it was. These people had no idea that you were coming.

You just showed up randomly. It’s not like she knew I was coming. She was just as shocked to see me as I was to see her beautiful facility.

Julie Swan | 15:24

Wow. That’s pretty neat. It’s just inspiring to me to see that there’s people out there making it happen and doing it right.

All right. You’re in the Humane Society, but we know you get fired. You let that leak out at the beginning.

How did this lead you in? How did you get fired?

Jessica Harris | 15:50

I got called in to meet them at a hotel. They had some print-offs that I could see. It was of my website.

They asked me how many breeding dogs I had. I said I had four. They said that’s over the state limit.

Unless you can produce a license right here, right now, you’re fired. I was fired because I had four breeding dogs.

Julie Swan | 16:19

You’ve got to be kidding.

Jessica Harris | 16:21

No.

Julie Swan | 16:21

Is that really a law in Missouri?

Jessica Harris | 16:25

If you have three or more intact females, you had to have a state license.

If you have ten or more, you have to have a commercial license.

Julie Swan | 16:32

Got it. That makes sense. Okay.

I know Colorado has some similar stuff for that.

Jessica Harris | 16:36

Yeah. I was in the process of building my facility for that inspection, but they beat me to it.

Julie Swan | 16:45

Wow. Maybe they just couldn’t reconcile the fact that you could work for the Humane Society and breed dogs.

Jessica Harris | 16:51

Very, very possible. Very possible.

Julie Swan | 16:54

Do you find the culture inside the Humane Society where you worked? I guess it couldn’t be necessarily speaking for every Humane Society, but did you find that they were anti-dog breeder?

Jessica Harris | 17:06

I found it very interesting that if we went to some of our seizures, or if we went out of state to assist with a large-scale natural disaster, it was always interesting that they wanted the small, cute toy breeds, because they could adopt those out faster. We didn’t want the pit bulls, because those are harder to adopt out. We wanted the purebreds. We wanted the dachshunds. We wanted the cute, fluffy dogs.

Julie Swan | 17:32

Because a lot of people don’t even know, but shelters where there’s an abundance of excess animals, puppies, strays, Arizona like where I live, we don’t always spay and neuter here. We have a lot more overpopulation. You’re saying that what happens is the areas with overpopulation will shuffle their dogs to other places in the country to be adopted out.

Jessica Harris | 17:56

What had happened, we had responded to a hurricane and they were moving dogs out of that location. Either the owners had signed over their ownership to the dogs, and that Humane Society there needed to relocate them. Sometimes we would take on a whole trailer load.

Julie Swan | 18:13

This is disaster relief primarily in this case.

Jessica Harris | 18:15

Right.

Julie Swan | 18:18

They said that they didn’t want, they essentially wanted cuter, easier to adopt and manage dogs.

Toy breeds and smaller animals, not pit bulls or larger dogs.

Jessica Harris | 18:33

Yeah. We would take those. Then it was more of an agreement.

You got to take both, but we’ll give you a few more cute, fluffy ones so you can adopt those out faster. I always found that interesting. They wanted those purebred dogs, but then frowned upon the breeding of.

Julie Swan | 18:53

Yeah, exactly. I do think it’s fascinating when people are like, oh, they just miraculously appear. You’re right.

Nobody ever intentionally bred purebred dogs.

Jessica Harris | 19:02

Right.

Julie Swan | 19:04

I agree.

I had an Instagram follower one time talk with me and she explained that in one of the bigger cities, they were actually running a breeding program as a non-profit. The non-profit had started to do it that way so that they could make more money.

Jessica Harris | 19:30

Wow.

Julie Swan | 19:30

I had been told about one during COVID when all the puppies were out of shelters, how the shelter had actually questioned if they should breed some of their intact dogs together so they could have puppies.

Jessica Harris | 19:47

Wow.

Julie Swan | 19:48

That was the question.

I was like, oh, we forgot our purpose.

Jessica Harris | 19:53

Right.

Julie Swan | 19:53

Yeah. I think there’s a lot of that. One other story I had heard was how a girl was working for her own.

She had created her own rescue situation, and she made a comment, oh, I hope I can sell these puppies so I can go on a trip this weekend. Those dogs that needed a home that you were supposed to be doing, it’s really feeding your bills. Yeah.

Jessica Harris | 20:18

Right. It seems like they kind of follow the money and then like you’re saying, they lose track of the actual goal.

Julie Swan | 20:24

Yeah. I noticed it’s really hard. I think it’s a really hard thing to work with.

When you’re dealing in a group of dogs that I don’t want to call undesirable. I think that’s the wrong word, but they’re not intentionally bred. They don’t have a stable temperament necessarily.

You don’t have a background story or a history to them. You’re working with very custom projects, if you will. Each one’s different.

It requires a lot. It feels weighty. It feels hard.

Jessica Harris | 20:59

Absolutely. I agree.

Julie Swan | 21:01

It’s interesting that that was your experience as well.

I mean, I see this. I get these stories from all over the country.

Jessica Harris | 21:09

It’s sad.

Julie Swan | 21:11

Whatever you do, you can’t avoid the economics and marketing aspect. I think I hate to say it that way, but it always plays a role.

Jessica Harris | 21:20

100%. Yep.

Julie Swan | 21:22

Yeah. But anyway, sorry, I digress.

Interesting that you noted that as well. Now you’ve been breeding. We jumped ahead when you got fired, but you got started breeding a couple of years before or was it?

It was probably a couple of years before you got fired?

Jessica Harris | 21:43

I did. I did. I got my first Dalmatian in 2018.

I can’t say I was really after breeding, but it kind of got kicked around at home. I had graduated to a new, better other half. He was very supportive of my horse habits and my now dog habits.

I had found a stud dog and I was like, we should breed her and just see what happens. She was not accepting of that. I actually ended up finding another female dog from the same lady that had the stud dog.

I raised my first litter in 2020. I had 11 awesome Dalmatian puppies. It was a really wonderful experience.

I had a whole wait list for all of them before they were ever born. It was just fantastic. In my first litter, I made $10,000 and it sent off something in my head that there’s more to this.

It was a great extra income.

Julie Swan | 22:46

I think it makes a huge difference. I think it’s silly to me that we can’t even, well, we talk about it, but where a lot of people hesitate to talk about it because why would you do all this work if it didn’t pay you money?

Jessica Harris | 23:00

Right. I mean, everybody says they only do it to better the breed and there’s more to it. You’re not just doing it so you can rack up vet bills and rack up feed bills.

You’re doing it because it’s a good income.

Julie Swan | 23:12

It’s a good income. It can be a very fun and rewarding way to make money. It also has a lifestyle that goes with it.

I know you and I were talking earlier about how much more flexible your life is now because you breed dogs.

Jessica Harris | 23:29

Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ve got to become a totally different mom because of my lifestyle.

My kids get to go on puppy deliveries with me. We get to see the world, and it is amazing. I mean, we just get to go on so many trips because I like to deliver my puppies.

It just gives us kind of an extra bonus to go to the part of the country that we haven’t seen. Potentially going to Switzerland next year to take a puppy over there. That’s really cool.

I don’t think I would have been able to experience this with another job.

Julie Swan | 24:01

Yeah, I agree. The time and the income. You make good money.

You thought about it. I think you had told me after that first litter because you weren’t exactly sure if you’d love it or not beforehand, but you did that first litter and then that sealed the deal for you?

Jessica Harris | 24:19

That kind of sealed the deal for me. Then I took $1,000 and I reinvested back in my program. I found an adult female, and I bought another female.

Then the next go around, my stud actually went sterile, so I had to purchase a different stud, but I ended up having my next go around, I had three litters. I went from one to three. That was extremely successful.

All of those puppies were immediately placed, and it was just a very wonderful experience.

Julie Swan | 24:53

Yeah. Was there anything that you felt you did particularly well in marketing, or was it maybe you got a little lucky with COVID?

Jessica Harris | 25:04

I think this was a touch prior to COVID, but Facebook was huge for me. I marketed and posted pictures. I didn’t do a lot of the paid marketing, but I just put them out there.

As I went on to breeding, I started doing my homework, which I highly recommend doing your homework before jumping with both feet in. I waited till after the first litter. After the first litter, I jumped in both feet.

I started Embarking my dogs. I started researching pedigrees, the color genetics and all of that. I learned something that I’ve always liked in life, which was something rare.

Dalmatians come in long coats.

Julie Swan | 25:40

Which blew my mind. I didn’t even know it existed until I talked to you. And I had a dog when I was five.

That was my first dog.

Jessica Harris | 25:48

That is so cool. More people need Dalmatians in their life. I started researching the coat and then the color.

They come in lemons, tricolors, sables, blue, liver, and then your black and white, and orange.

Julie Swan | 26:04

The sable blew my mind too. I had no idea.

Jessica Harris | 26:08

That’s been the hardest. Ever since I started breeding and then researching the color, I just got my first sable and my first sable long coat. The long coat’s the first in the breed.

There’s never been another one. He’s the only one and he is super cool.

Julie Swan | 26:23

Wow. That is so neat. I know you sent me a picture.

He’s so cute.

Jessica Harris | 26:26

I got new pictures today.

Julie Swan | 26:28

Yeah, you’re going to have to send them. We’ll put them in the show notes, guys.

Jessica Harris | 26:30

Yeah. Okay, cool. So I really started digging into my homework and finding this out and they were very much, so they’re off standard.

Well, let’s just be honest and upfront. Long coats and all those other colors, they’re off standard. So you catch a lot of hate from it, but it’s natural to the breed.

There is no in-crossing of other breeds. That’s why it’s very important for me to follow AKC’s pedigree and the Embark, to ensure that I was breeding 100% Dalmatians. All of my Dalmatians have come back 100% and the COI is very important to me.

So I have dug very deep into this, and I found a huge love for it. I love it.

Julie Swan | 27:09

How do you, do you have a number? It varies a lot with breeds, so take it all with a grain of salt guys. But do you have a number you try to stay underneath for COI?

Jessica Harris | 27:21

So I was guided in the beginning by a couple of people that you should stay under 5% in Dalmatians. My goal is to stay under three and a half and I have many who are zero.

Julie Swan | 27:31

You guys want to know a secret? One of my stud dogs I bought is 38%. Just throwing it out there.

I’ve seen a lot of other breeds around 20 on average. So being below five and three and a half percent is like nothing. Yeah.

Jessica Harris | 27:47

That was news to me. I didn’t even know that they were that high. I had no idea.

Julie Swan | 27:52

Yeah.

Jessica Harris | 27:53

So I work very hard to breed healthy, and then I do all my health testing, and do check numbers and all of that. So I, after I got into it, I dug and did all the research, to try to do it correctly, and do it the best way that I could, even being off standard. I have standards.

Julie Swan | 28:10

I love that. Yeah. And I think you’re carving a new path for yourself, while maintaining a very high standard for what you’re producing. But I mean, you know, why do we dye our hair, paint our nails and buy clothes?

Because we like the look. I mean, I get it.

Jessica Harris | 28:27

Right. Right. I love the look.

Julie Swan | 28:30

Yeah, that’s perfect. So I did think it was interesting to one, I don’t know how much you guys know about color genetics, but obviously, you know but like when I ran Embark on my dogs, and I found they all have tan points, and I thought that’s so funny. I have no dogs that have tan points, but they all genetically carry it on both sides, right?

Double copies. And it was all because they’re the dominant black gene, the dominant K that of course it gets masked. And I think it’s really interesting to think that all you really needed with your Dalmatians, because GSPs and Dalmatians are very related.

They used a lot of Dalmatian and GSPs, but, they’re almost all that dominant black. And so you’re saying there was a couple that had that little KY that allow you to bring in some of those colors.

Jessica Harris | 29:20

Right. Right. And it was hard to find the sable.

It took me testing over 42 dogs, even dogs I didn’t own. I was like, Hey, can I send you a kit? Hey, can I send you a kit?

Because I was going to find the gene one way or another. And I ended up actually just swapping out stud dogs with this lady who had one.

Julie Swan | 29:38

How did you know it even existed in the breed?

Jessica Harris | 29:42

Somebody had sent me their Embark, because a lot of Dalmatian breeders would reach out to me and be like, can you please explain this gibberish to me? Because I have no idea what it says. Randomly, this girl sent me an Embark and her puppy carried sable. I was like, where’d you get your dog? So then I reached out to the dog owner, and about a year later, she ended up swapping a dog with me. It was very cool. Yeah.

Julie Swan | 30:08

I remember when we first talked, you said something that I thought was so brilliant. And you were like, these genetics aren’t hard. You can do the numbers, you know what you’re going to get.

So you can buy the dog with the copy you need and make what you need. I love that. I think more breeders need to dive into that.

Jessica Harris | 30:28

A hundred percent. So maybe what I told you was, is I have some dogs that are just black, what I call plain black and white. I know they’re gorgeous.

I love my black and white, so I’m not hating. I have them, but genetically they carry liver, lemon, where they can produce orange. They carry tricolor, they carry long coat. But I can manipulate into what they’re going to produce by matching them, and pairing them with a specific stud dog.

So I’m not mass producing color just randomly. It’s very specific and very driven. It’s not just carelessness.

Julie Swan | 31:04

Right. And of course, all your dogs are passing their health testing. So the pool of dogs you’re playing with has already met the standard.

It’s like you get a good dog with a good temperament, which of course, Dalmatians generally have pretty good temperaments. And then you’re now just the third factor is playing with the color. And I love that.

Jessica Harris | 31:25

Absolutely. And the coat, we cannot forget the gorgeous long coats.

Julie Swan | 31:28

That’s true. Yes. You guys got to check this out. That’s why you don’t, you don’t really see, I guess, are there Dalmadoodles?

Jessica Harris | 31:34

Very few, but I have seen them.

Julie Swan | 31:36

It’s interesting.

Yeah. I’m always fascinated by everything you can cross with a doodle.

Jessica Harris | 31:40

They look like a wired haired Dalmatian. The ones I’ve seen, they look kind of just wired. They’re, they are really cute. I’m not going to hate on them either. They’re cute.

Julie Swan | 31:49

Yeah. And then what is like the grooming for a long coated Dalmatian?

Jessica Harris | 31:55

We live out in the country on 40 acres in the woods and in the sticks, they are not hard to maintain. I mean, really they’re fairly easy to maintain a little quick brush. And if they get some burrs in their hair, they love the ponds and stuff.

So they need some baths, but I mean, it’s not all that extra.

Julie Swan | 32:12

Can you give us another, because of course, podcasts, people can’t see anything. Can you give us another breed of dog, is it like a Golden Retriever coat where it’s thick like that? Or is it not that dense?

Jessica Harris | 32:24

I don’t think it’s quite that thick, but it’s so they range. Some have just kind of longer ear hair and furnishings, and others are like full-blown looking like a Golden Retriever. I mean, they got a ton of hair factor, so it can vary a little bit as far as how much coat you get.

Julie Swan | 32:42

Yeah. That makes sense. How has it been working with other breeders?

Jessica Harris | 32:49

It’s hit or miss, you find your BFFs, and you find the ones you avoid.

Julie Swan | 32:57

That’s probably fair in everything.

Jessica Harris | 33:02

So I mean, I have another dog breeder who we made an agreement that we only trade dogs.

There’s no money involved.

That way we can further our programs and switch out genetics and pedigrees and COIs and, or even trade stud services where it doesn’t cost us anything. So we can grow our program debt-free.

Julie Swan | 33:16

I love that. Dave Ramsey would be proud.

Jessica Harris | 33:19

I love Dave Ramsey. So Dave Ramsey would be very proud of my car incident. Can we touch on my car incident?

Julie Swan | 33:29

Oh, this is a great story.

Jessica Harris | 33:31

Okay. So after my being fired, I’m driving home on my paid off car of six months, and it just shuts down in the middle of the road. So I’d been fired.

I don’t have a job to, you know, go get a car loan like everybody does, including myself. But I finally did figure out a way to do it. So I get this car loan and I buy a car.

It’s an SUV. I’m driving a puppy out of town to deliver it. Deer runs out in front of me and totals it.

Julie Swan | 33:57

And you just got this car.

Jessica Harris | 33:59

I just got this car.

Julie Swan | 34:00

Brand new.

Jessica Harris | 34:01

Yeah. Yeah. Brand new loan and you know, quote unquote, no job.

Right. So I had just sold a or two of puppies by the grace of God. And I went and I paid cash for this SUV that I have now.

And I could have never, ever, ever done that before. If I was working my normal nine to five, which I did not do that with the Humane Society. I worked a lot more hours on that. But you know, your normal nine to five job, dog breeding has changed my life completely.

I cannot express how much it’s changed my life. It’s given so much to my kids, so much to my family to just do what I do. And I love it.

It’s not like I do this because, Oh, it makes money. I do it because I love it. And it pays the bills and I get to do so much more.

Julie Swan | 34:46

Yeah. I just think you hit that sweet spot. And what do you think, you know, people are going to be like, Hey, I want that too.

Do you have any tips, things that you’ve always followed that have always come through for you? Any advice?

Jessica Harris | 34:59

You absolutely have to do a good job. There’s no cutting corners on your dogs. I mean, you really need to get nice quality dogs.

You need to do your homework. You need to know, if you’re wanting to follow genetics and color, you need to know, you’ve got to do your homework on that. And find out what you love and what you’re passionate about. Even if it’s off standards, you better have thick skin because you’re going to catch the hate, and you’re going to be called a backyard breeder.

You’re going to be called all kinds of things under the sun, but stick to what you love because those people don’t bother me. They throw fuel on my fire and we all know I’m on fire.

Julie Swan | 35:34

Right, no you’re doing such a great job. I love it. I love it. And I think it’s great.

Because you have a lot of people coming to you, not just for off standard either, right? Like you have a fair amount of people just want standard colors, right?

Jessica Harris | 35:48

Yeah. So a lot of people still want your typical black and white Dalmatian. And, and I absolutely can provide those too.

And then the longcoats are really starting to become a very big hit.

Julie Swan | 36:01

Do they shed, or because of the grooming need of it, are they kind of like a poodle, or is it not so much?

Jessica Harris | 36:10

So Dalmatian said shed 365 days a year, you cannot get around the shedding of the Dalmatian. But the good thing about the longcoats, is it’s so much easier to clean up, and it doesn’t get embedded into like your skin, your couch, your car seats. Like it’s so much easier to clean it up because those little fine needles of glitter are, it’s rough sometimes, but yeah.

Julie Swan | 36:36

I remember that my GSPs are the same. I have black seat covers in my truck, they’re Carhart, you know, and I swear it’s like my dogs sit back there and weave their hairs into it. It’s ridiculous.

Jessica Harris | 36:49

Absolutely. I can relate to that. So yeah, that’s what I usually tell people so much easier to clean up, but yeah.

Julie Swan | 36:57

That makes sense. And anything else you think that worked out well for you? I mean, you sound like you’ve always worked to take litter money and pay debt, make sure you were never running any deficit.

Jessica Harris | 37:11

Right. So I’m completely debt-free, but my house and 10 acres and I’m six months ahead of my house payments. So my goal is to continue to do that, and set a goal for myself a couple of days ago. We’ll see how it goes. Is try to pay my house off in five years.

Julie Swan | 37:31

Oh, that’s awesome. And so you’re just taking that extra cash and throwing it down and it’s covered. This is your job.

And yeah. So have you, how do you decide, right? How do you decide when you have a lump sum of cash come in, what to put down on your house, when to reinvest in your dogs, and then when to treat your family?

What’s your thought process?

Jessica Harris | 37:56

I should probably brush up on my Dave Ramsey to make him more proud. I have followed Dave Ramsey and I love it. I don’t have, if I’m being honest, I don’t have a percentage, or anything like that because I would say over the last year or two is when it’s become more successful and I’ve had more cash on hand.

So I don’t really, I don’t have that answer.

Julie Swan | 38:18

Okay. So you mostly just kind of do what feels right. If your dogs need something, they get what they need.

Jessica Harris | 38:22

Oh, a hundred percent. And I treat them, like usually when a litter goes home, I reward my adult dogs. They did this for me. I’ll order a big old Chewy order of new toys and chews and bones, and I make sure they’re taken care of, because like I tell my kids, if it wasn’t for the dogs, we may not have this.

They know that the dogs take care of us. And so it’s my job to take care of them. They absolutely get the best care that they can because they do an amazing job for me.

Julie Swan | 38:53

Yeah. Okay. So we love that you’ve had so much success with all this, but people are always curious numbers wise.

How many breeding females do you have actively breeding for you?

Jessica Harris | 39:03

So I usually keep about 10 females into my program and I’ve had very good genetic diversity with that.

Julie Swan | 39:13

That makes sense. Yeah. You can do a lot with 10 and I know you have probably more studs than the average breeder, but that’s just for genetic purposes, which makes sense.

So people are, so you’re breeding back to back, right? So about 20 litters a year, no big deal. Your dogs cycle primarily over six months.

Jessica Harris | 39:29

Yes. Most of them do. Yes.

Julie Swan | 39:31

That was pretty standard. I think for our kind of dog, you pretty much have litters going all the time, coming and going. Do you hire help, or how you’re able to do, it with just you and the kids?

Jessica Harris | 39:41

Mostly me. So in my horse side of the world, I have a partner and he always said, never hire somebody to do something you can’t do yourself. So I really took that to heart. I’m not going to hire anybody to pick up my poop because I can do that.

And why would I pay them to do it? Now don’t get me wrong. There are probably some instances that health reasons and such that people do need to do that.

So I’m not hating on them for any reason, but if I can do it, I’m doing it. It’s my job.

Julie Swan | 40:13

Yeah. So you’ve just consider it your job. You own it.

And that, but that’s really great because it’s kept you in a lean overhead. I think that’s something I see a lot of breeders get out of hand with really fast is they’re like, Oh, that’s frustrating. I’ll hire it out.

Oh, this is frustrating. I’ll hire it out. And then you get this really high overhead, which now requires you to sell so many dogs.

And then you’re stuck. And yeah, I agree with you. How in the world do you manage that many dogs by yourself or just with your kids help?

Jessica Harris | 40:42

So it can be pretty challenging, but your facility is huge. I decided very quickly that I needed a facility. So my puppies were very gracious and they built me a facility.

I have, it’s concrete on the inside, and concrete five foot out, indoor, outdoor access with heating and air conditioning. And then the rest of their runs is rock. And so I clean it like a horse stall.

It doesn’t take very long. You go through, pick it, toss it over the fence. And then Jake brings the tractor and scoops it up and hauls it away.

It’s very easy to manage and maintain.

Julie Swan | 41:18

Yeah. So you kind of just doing pressure washing. I mean, the dogs are going outside, so that’s really keeping your indoor side pretty clean.

How many litters did it take you? Do you remember to pay for something like that? Ballpark.

Jessica Harris | 41:31

I just kind of paid for it out of litters as they were coming through. A family friend helped with the building. So that obviously helped with some of the cost.

And so I just kind of paid for it a little bit at a time. So I didn’t have necessarily the money set aside for it, because at that time I was still working a full time job, and raising litters. So I wasn’t as large scale then.

So just a little piece at a time. And I just kind of added on as I needed.

Julie Swan | 41:56

Yeah. And so it just makes all the difference. Right.

So how much time do you spend cleaning? Would you say every day or every week?

Jessica Harris | 42:03

I try to go out every morning and toss poop, and then we clean buckets every couple of days. We’ll take them out, wash them, bleach them and put them back in. Honestly, the upkeep of it is not what you would think.

It’s really easy as long as you stay on top of it. That’s that’s key is staying on top. Take the time it takes, and it’ll take less time.

Julie Swan | 42:24

Yeah. So you’re figuring maybe about an hour a day, something like that.

Jessica Harris | 42:28

Yeah. I mean, if that.

Julie Swan | 42:30

Yeah.

Jessica Harris | 42:30

Now, when you add puppies in, we’re going to add in some more time. But as far as maintaining my adults, it’s a breeze. It is not a hard job.

Julie Swan | 42:39

That makes sense. And so they’ve got the exercise runs and all that. And that pretty much just keeps them occupied.

They’re happy because they get to play with each other all day and do stuff.

Jessica Harris | 42:46

Yep. And then we can let them out during chore time. They run, play.

I mean, somebody may think they get locked up and stuck in cages all the time. No, they get to live a very well-rounded life. I mean, they’re great, great dogs.

Julie Swan | 43:00

Yeah, no, I love them. I really do. OK, so your husband now sounds amazing, right?

Not only is he getting the tractor and scooping up all the tossed over the fence poop, I’ve just got this great visual. But he’s also very supportive of you in the program. I mean, I know you were breeding when you guys got together.

That was already a thing. Right. But he how does he support you as far as the breeding goes?

Is there any agreements you guys that have had or discussions that you could share that worked really well to keep breeding, not take over your life?

Jessica Harris | 43:35

What I tell everybody, is that everybody needs a Jake in their life. I just got super lucky. And he is so supportive.

It doesn’t matter if I want to bring home a new dog, a new horse or, hey, I have a new project. I mean, he’s 100 percent in. And so honestly, everybody just needs a Jake.

But so I do my own deliveries. Like I said, I try not to pay anybody for something that I can do myself. And the safety of my puppies.

Sometimes in transport, you know, they can pick up extra goodies that you don’t want them to have. So I try to do my own transport. And while I’m away, Jake manages it all.

So that’s why I can really say my program is easy to manage because it’s so easy Jake can do it. And any person could do it. So all my adults are all on one type of feed.

And there’s a specific scoop. I make him a list because sometimes dogs need extra food. And it’s so simple.

He has no issue doing it while I’m gone for a week at a time. And there’s really no complaints. He has carried a mama dog to the house for me while I was away, actually just the other day.

And because she didn’t want to walk, he carried her into the home and he whelped her out in the house for me. And he was right there with her the whole time.

Julie Swan | 44:53

Wow. That’s pretty amazing. Yeah.

So that cloning software for husbands is not out yet, but we’ll be calling you.

Jessica Harris | 45:02

He’s it. He’s it.

Julie Swan | 45:04

So if you didn’t have to worry about selling your dogs, they all just sold, would you hire help to expand, or would you do you think you would just keep it to be something manageable based on what you could do?

Jessica Harris | 45:18

Why I expanded as far as I did was not to produce puppies. It was to collect genetics, collect pedigrees. I didn’t do that for mass production.

I only did it to bring in the bloodlines and the color. And so now what I’ve done is I’ve combined dogs. So I’ll take four dogs and turn that into one dog.

Then I can you know, some of the dogs that I got from another breeder, you know, they got out completely, and they had some senior dogs, stud dogs, just so we’re clear. They were eight years old when I got them, still very healthy, very active. But I wanted those genetics.

And so they’re a part of my program right now.

Julie Swan | 46:00

And so when you’re taking four dogs and turning them into one, you’re breeding them together, making litters and then breeding those again. And so all of those dogs will ultimately be there in a limited capacity until you create the dog you were trying to get.

Jessica Harris | 46:13

Right, right. But I don’t just, in some of those, even the second generation, I don’t just dump those dogs. Like I don’t want anybody to think that I’m breeding them and then I just dump them.

Sometimes those dogs are very much a part of my program and very important because I can’t bottleneck my genetics either. So some of them actually will stay, and they’ll absolutely be a part of my program. But I expanded that largely to bring in the genetics.

Julie Swan | 46:38

Yeah, I think it’s smart. I really do think that’s how you’re able to keep that huge genetic diversity, and that low COI and, and still produce all the fun things you’re producing.

Jessica Harris | 46:47

It’s been a wild ride, but it’s been, it’s been very colorful and fun.

Julie Swan | 46:52

Right. No pun intended. Yeah. How do you manage, if you’re cleaning and managing all these dogs yourself, how do you manage buyers and marketing and how do you juggle all that?

Jessica Harris | 47:08

It’s a lot, but I do it all myself. I mean, nobody else has access to my notes, and how I take payment. Nobody else has access, just me.

So most of the time I use a note app on my phone. But luckily I’ve been following you for a while and I’m learning and growing. So I’ve dove into HoneyBook and the email and I’m revamping my website just to make things easier.

Julie Swan | 47:36

Yeah.

Jessica Harris | 47:37

So I’ll have more time with my family now that I have the ability.

Julie Swan | 47:41

It makes much sense. And I think those are the things you can absolutely streamline, but it sounds like your SEO is working well for you. And it sounds like you’re not relying on an Instagram post every five minutes in order to sell a dog.

Does that sound right?

Jessica Harris | 47:54

Yeah, absolutely. So it kind of comes in waves of what I’ve noticed. I kind of have an automated message that when somebody reaches out to me, it sends to them, what are they looking for?

The sex, the color, the coat, if they’re wanting breeding rights or pet rights, because what I’ve also noticed in breeding off-standard, is you kind of have some people come after you a little bit shady. They don’t want to tell you upfront. So I make it very easy to, I just ask upfront, you know, are you looking for a pet or breeding rights?

That way I know that they’re not trying to be shady. And then the last question I ask is where did you find me? Because I want to know, I want to know where am I getting this organic feed and where do I, my next step is how do I make that even better?

I’m always looking to see what can I do next and what can I do better? So my other recommendation is podcasts. Get on there and listen to them.

I’ve listened to several, several hours of yours. And then you also give us leads to other people to grow, you know, with social media and different things. So that’s been a wonderful help is just doing your homework.

Julie Swan | 48:56

Yeah, that makes sense. So you actually are taking the time when you’re cleaning and working with your dogs on the mindless stuff more or less, and you are investing that into your education and giving you more resources.

Jessica Harris | 49:08

I think you hit the nail on the head. So I spoke about education with my animal control. I don’t ever miss out on an opportunity to learn something new, and how to do a better job of something.

Julie Swan | 49:19

Yeah, well, it’s obviously paying off for you. I mean, it’s great to build what you’ve built and just honestly, just over five years is incredible.

Jessica Harris | 49:28

Thank you.

Julie Swan | 49:30

It’s huge. It’s beautiful. So thank you so much.

And if you were going to give us one piece of advice to new breeders or whatever, what would it be?

Jessica Harris | 49:38

I would say it’s just the education part, and doing your homework, and don’t be scared to ask somebody. Other breeders have been a wealth of information. They’ve been there.

They’ve done it. Become friends with a breeder who’s been doing it, and you admire because you can call them up at midnight going, hey, this is what’s going on. They’ve been there.

So that’s been huge for me is having a best friend who does this too.

Julie Swan | 50:02

Yeah, I agree. And I have found that while I had a really rough start with good breeders, there’s a ton of really awesome breeders out there that actually are normal. Normal people that understand.

Jessica Harris | 50:14

They have the same mindset too, that it’s okay to make a dollar off this, and not that you’re just doing it to better the breed, which is still fine, but you can make a living off this.

Julie Swan | 50:25

Oh yeah. Well, you’re a shining example. Yeah.

Thanks so much for coming on. And where can people find you?

Jessica Harris | 50:33

I’m on Facebook as Missouri Dalmatians and my website is also Missouri Dalmatians. I do have an Instagram, Missouri Dalmatians, and I’m a little slower on there. So I’m still learning that one.

Even Tik Tok’s a little slow for me. So I’m still learning that. That’s still a learning curve for me.

Julie Swan | 50:48

Sure. But yeah, but people can definitely check out your website and see your beautiful dogs. I’ll throw some pictures in, in the show notes so people can see that easy because you just got to see these guys.

They’re so cute.

Jessica Harris | 50:55

Awesome.

Julie Swan | 50:56

Thanks so much.

Jessica Harris | 50:58

Thank you.